Joseph Smith mega thread. We'll see

[_stemelbow]

"I'm going to say this again: I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky." President Clinton

Yeah, there seems to be a theme among powerful men. Delude themselves as to what they are doing so it isn't really a "lie." Hmmmm.

Joseph Smith broke the law and the laws of the church when he started practicing polygamy or celestial marriage or whatever you want to call it.

Stem, could you please show me where Joseph Smith affirms practicing polygamy? As far as I know he denied it to the death.

I can't think of any instance, off the top of my head, wherein Joseph Smith addmitted to practicing polygamy. He certainly taught it, and claimed to receive revelation on the matter, though.

[_sock puppet]

But if Joseph's story is authentic as he tells it, regarding polygamy, then its not that God lied but that he either allowed Joseph Smith to lie and said its okay if he did.

Your god seems awfully inconsistent. First it's "Satan is the father of lies," then it's "go ahead and lie, Joseph." First it's "we don't have to follow the law if we don't like it" then it's "we believe in following the law of the land." What kind of God is this that you're worshiping, Stem?

It's becoming more and more clear that its a god of situational ethics, and a god that changes directions as frequently as does the wind.

[_stemelbow]

Perhaps if he was a pathological liar and had lied so much he couldn't distinguish fact from fiction anymore. But that's probably not what you meant.

I don't think you have to be a "pathological liar" to be confused between fact and fiction in some cases, though.

[_sock puppet]

Perhaps if he was a pathological liar and had lied so much he couldn't distinguish fact from fiction anymore. But that's probably not what you meant.

I don't think you have to be a "pathological liar" to be confused between fact and fiction in some cases, though.

No, but when someone's lying mounts up to the degree that JSJr's did, well, then it is reasonable to think he might have been a pathological liar.

[_stemelbow]

If its authentic as JSJr told it, then the "new and everlasting covenant" necessary to exaltation would not have been stopped by the LDS Church--unless as Nightlion would remind us, the LDS Church is itself in apostasy.

But the new and everlasting covenant hasn't been stopped by the LDS Church.

[_Buffalo]

Here's my question now...

is it reasonable to conclude that the Old Testament, or specific incidences in the Old Testament, set a precedent in Joseph Smith' mind regarding polygamy? That Joseph Smith thought it was of God, even though it was not, and went ahead with it anyway, and Joseph Smith still be a prophet?

I'm sure he got the idea from the Old Testament - Joseph was an avid Bible reader. I read somewhere that he learned to read using the Bible - not sure if that's true.

If I recall correctly, there IS a Bible prohibition against marrying sisters, which Joseph did. Also, no justification for polyandry.

If even one of his "plural marriages" were invalid, that would make him an adulterer. So I don't think he could be a prophet then.

Or then again, why not? Apparently the god of the old testament is cool with genocide, infanticide, rape and slavery. Adultery is pretty minor comparatively.

[_Buffalo]

If its authentic as JSJr told it, then the "new and everlasting covenant" necessary to exaltation would not have been stopped by the LDS Church--unless as Nightlion would remind us, the LDS Church is itself in apostasy.

But the new and everlasting covenant hasn't been stopped by the LDS Church.

I guess you didn't get the manifesto?

[_stemelbow]

Here is where god tells the church that they do not need to break the laws of the land to obey him.

D&C 52:21 Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land.

Who was wrong? God or Smith?

Its section 58, but that's a great point. Not at all easily reconciled. So did Joseph Smith think sealing for eternity was breaking the laws of the land?

[_just me]

I can't think of any instance, off the top of my head, wherein Joseph Smith addmitted to practicing polygamy. He certainly taught it, and claimed to receive revelation on the matter, though.

We only have the testimony of others. What they describe is abuse by a person in a position of trust.

I find it ironic that Joseph used Gazelem as a secret code name:

Alma 37:23 And the Lord said: I will prepare unto my servant Gazelem, a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light, that I may discover unto my people who serve me, that I may discover unto them the works of their brethren, yea, their secret works, their works of darkness, and their wickedness and abominations.

Polygamy was most assuredly a secret work of darkness.

[_sock puppet]

If its authentic as JSJr told it, then the "new and everlasting covenant" necessary to exaltation would not have been stopped by the LDS Church--unless as Nightlion would remind us, the LDS Church is itself in apostasy.

But the new and everlasting covenant hasn't been stopped by the LDS Church.

How many wives do you have, stemelbow?