Denying the holy ghost

[_zeezrom]

Deny it now and you're toast.

Yep.

Also, we should remind ourselves of the beautiful and heartwarming doctrine of D&C 76.

31Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—

32They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;

33For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;

34Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—

35Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.

36These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—

37And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;

38Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.

[_xolotl]

Denial of the Holy Ghost and the shedding of innocent blood is to crucify Christ afresh. Blaspheme against the holy ghost can only occur when a perfect knowledge and understanding is gained, the veil is rent and there is no room for doubt. that's pretty much the sum of it all from a lot of early sources discussing denial of the holy ghost. No, alma's seed allegory and "perfect knowledge" doesn't cover it. If I recall correctly, the veil has to be rent or you have to see Christ in the flesh and gain a perfect understanding through the holy ghost.

Apostatizing from what one would "know" to be true, per Alma, would simply be apostasy. There is forgiveness in that. Joseph Smith made mention that few of those who fell away from the 12 would be counted as sons of perdition and guilty of having denied the Holy Ghost.

[_zeezrom]

so apostles must talk to Jesus face to face.

back to Alma- why then, did he say perfect knowledge? Is it a different type of perfect knowledge?

[_Inconceivable]

..why then, did he say perfect knowledge? Is it a different type of perfect knowledge?

As a member, I put myself in a bind telling everyone I "knew" things to be true. Knowledge can only come through the Holy Ghost. That kind of seals the deal doesn't it?

I think this is the reason why no one (except for a couple people "assigned" to the task) ever came after me to bring me back. I quickly went from a TBM, to a lost sheep, to a wolf. I never even got a chance to be a black sheep.

I guess I'm just a super decent wolf.

Anyways, I do think that most of those that knew me before consider me as being a blasphemer. I was always very much bold and vocal in my convictions. I could see a number of people I knew leaned upon my "testimony" for their support.

My mom asked me a bunch of questions a year ago or so about my beliefs. She somehow drew comfort in my answers enough to exclaim that I ".. must have never really known the church was true". She was obviously determining in her own mind whether I fell into the perditious category.

Poor mom.

[_Nightlion]

And a dispensationalist Christian would find your question - with all its attending tedium - utterly silly. Denying the holy ghost has nothing to do with any individual believer, nor is it even in play today.
.

QFT

Man howdy, not just the Dispensationalist but Mormons as well are not IN PLAY today.

[_Nightlion]

1-ye have tried the experiment, and
2-planted the seed, and
3-it swelleth and sprouteth, and
4-beginneth to grow,

A-ye must needs know that the seed is good.
B-is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing

So, if your question to which you tried the experiment encompassed Jesus, your bosom burned, you attributed that to the holy ghost, and your beliefs grew, then you have a perfect knowledge of Jesus.

Deny it now and you're toast.

31Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—

It only goes to show that McConkie did not KNOW what he was talking about because he had NEVER been made a partaker of the power as Zeez quoted. Therefore he never lived a day of his life hooked up in the traces with the bit in his teeth having put his hand on the plow. Rather he could only guess and did that poorly.

People take for granted that what they read about really does apply to them when in fact they have NEVER qualified for it at all. Look at how mealy mouthed the LDS are about how the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost is figured. An imperceptible process. What crap!

You are made a partaker of HIS power when it falls upon you and you are wrought upon and cleansed and given a new heart from God that is filled with his love which is to know God. There are a dozen other things I should say about the significance of this EVENT.

A testimony is nothing to compare with this covenant seared by fire upon our the fleshy tables of the heart by the personal visitation of God's power, for he attends these events unseen and you know it. Neither is this a mere transcendence of choosing a higher path, centering your ambitions in Christ's example, following him with a firm mind as do the hypocrites who refuse to come unto Christ in truth and are never made partakers of his power.

After God had made you a NEW CREATURE by a personal act of creation that he visits upon your whole being, changing your heart, might, mind and strength to his purposes you are forever after perdition potential and only these can sin against the Holy Ghost, having truly RECEIVED it and not just a flash from the Eternal Semaphore. (Leo J. Muir was a great uncle of mine.)

Questions?

[_Nightlion]

If I recall correctly, the veil has to be rent or you have to see Christ in the flesh and gain a perfect understanding through the holy ghost.

Not exactly. Those who do have the veil rent and see the face of Christ were first qualified by the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost. This event which came first is what counts.

[_sock puppet]

Denial of the Holy Ghost and the shedding of innocent blood is to crucify Christ afresh. Blaspheme against the holy ghost can only occur when a perfect knowledge and understanding is gained, the veil is rent and there is no room for doubt. that's pretty much the sum of it all from a lot of early sources discussing denial of the holy ghost. No, alma's seed allegory and "perfect knowledge" doesn't cover it. If I recall correctly, the veil has to be rent or you have to see Christ in the flesh and gain a perfect understanding through the holy ghost.

Apostatizing from what one would "know" to be true, per Alma, would simply be apostasy. There is forgiveness in that. Joseph Smith made mention that few of those who fell away from the 12 would be counted as sons of perdition and guilty of having denied the Holy Ghost.

So from this we can deduce that Mormonism really believes that knowledge from the physical senses is superior to knowledge 'from the Spirit'. For the knowledge to be perfect, then you have to have seen jehovah in the flesh. Else why do they call this 'perfect knowledge'?

The burning bosom emotion is thus an inferior and imperfect knowledge.

What does the Holy Ghost have to do with seeing jehovah in the flesh? If jehovah's there in the flesh, no need for the Holy Ghost.

[_Jason Bourne]

Denying the Holy Ghost (or Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost) is not a unique LDS concept. Jesus said it first and called it unforgivable. You can look it up.

Z gave the best LDS verse defining what LDS scripture understands this to mean from D&C 76.

[_zeezrom]

So from this we can deduce that Mormonism really believes that knowledge from the physical senses is superior to knowledge 'from the Spirit'. For the knowledge to be perfect, then you have to have seen jehovah in the flesh. Else why do they call this 'perfect knowledge'?

The burning bosom emotion is thus an inferior and imperfect knowledge.

What does the Holy Ghost have to do with seeing jehovah in the flesh? If jehovah's there in the flesh, no need for the Holy Ghost.

I wonder if the current apostles and prophet, TSM think they have a perfect knowledge. I bet they do not believe this. Likely, they think no church leader has had a perfect knowledge since the early 20th century.