Six Hundred and Ninety-Nine

[_bcspace]

Also closer to Biblically predicted numbers..."few there be who find it". But in no way am I implying MDD moderation is the key to your salvation.

We both know this isn't referring to activity rates among New Testament Church membership

Yes. Activity rate is about 50%. TBM rate (TR holding and tithe paying) is about 33% and that last is what I assumed you were refering to. I think all indications point to a rate of resurrection in the highest degree of the CK will be closer to 1% but would not be disappointed if it were more.

[_Doctor Scratch]

This is a devastating analysis, Kevin. To be frank, I don't understand why they don't just fully privatize the board. They obviously don't want us to read anything they say, and they certainly don't want broad and diverse participation. They ought to just go completely private and just carry on with the members they have. If they want new people to join, they can go out and act as missionaries for their board. Try as I might, I cannot think of a single reason why they would want to keep the board open, for all to see.

[_Kevin Graham]

So in other words, you can't name a single LDS forum like this one, run by LDS members?

Thought so.

All you did was rationalize excuses for the way LDS apologists try to rig the debate before it ever starts. Your argument is circular and begs the question as to whether these things are in fact violated. Anything that puts the Church in a negative light is almost always interpreted by apologists as a lie, exaggeration, failing to take everything into account, etc etc. because that is how you've been conditioned to think about all criticisms and the people who criticize. But the fact is you cannot name a single LDS forum on the web that lets all discussions run their course without moderator intervention. And no, I do not agree that this forum does the same thing. Not even close. If that were true, then why are you here instead of at MAD? Same question can be asked of droopy I suppose. There is a huge difference between these forums. One allows a discussion to run its course, despite the direction it is headed, and the other is controlled by a moderation team that is constantly trying to steer a discussion towards a certain conclusion, and when they cannot, they shut it down. These guys are like a hybrid between air traffic controllers and anti-libertarian dictators.

[_Kevin Graham]

Yes. Activity rate is about 50%. TBM rate (TR holding and tithe paying) is about 33% and that last is what I assumed you were refering to. I think all indications point to a rate of resurrection in the highest degree of the CK will be closer to 1% but would not be disappointed if it were more

No I am referring to the number of people baptized compared to the number of people who actually call themselves Mormon. Worldwide you're probably looking at 30-35% activity rates, while nationwide it is probably closer to 40%. And this doesn't even include the number of folks who go through the motions as members, but don't really believe it is true. There are more people like this than you think, some of whom participate on this forum.

[_Kevin Graham]

This is a devastating analysis, Kevin. To be frank, I don't understand why they don't just fully privatize the board. They obviously don't want us to read anything they say, and they certainly don't want broad and diverse participation. They ought to just go completely private and just carry on with the members they have. If they want new people to join, they can go out and act as missionaries for their board. Try as I might, I cannot think of a single reason why they would want to keep the board open, for all to see.

No kidding, with an eradication rate of roughly 80%, why leave any trace of them at all? Just delete them entirely. Because if someone were to ask me to guess this ratio, I probably would have said 20-25%. I wasn't aware of how obsessive Nemesis has become when it comes to controlling the discussions. I mean do you know how much time is required to sit here day in and day out, just censoring posts, suspending members and nuking threads? I mean what is the point? Might as well call it the "Goodluckintryingtohaveadiscussion.org" forum.

[_bcspace]

No I am referring to the number of people baptized compared to the number of people who actually call themselves Mormon.

If I recall correctly, that figure seems to be higher than the activity rate in the US.

Worldwide you're probably looking at 30-35% activity rates, while nationwide it is probably closer to 40%

Can't speak to world-wide, but I do have a little bit of a finger on the nationwide pulse. 50% is pretty accurate. One hits 40% only when sacrament meeting is at 9 am, or even 8:30 am. 11 pm start times are 55-60%. Three wards in a building and you're at about 50%. TBM rates seem to hold steady at 33%.

All you did was rationalize excuses for the way LDS apologists try to rig the debate before it ever starts.

Doesn't appear to be the case. A fair portion of my posts here are able to point out the various inconsistencies with the antiMormon argument, just as one can do on other forums. But I will certainly grant that this is a unique board and yes, I like the venue. But it is not rigging to have a forum that expects a little intellectual honesty....unless one is not intellectually honest. Here we have both.

No kidding, with an eradication rate of roughly 80%, why leave any trace of them at all? Just delete them entirely. Because if someone were to ask me to guess this ratio, I probably would have said 20-25%. I wasn't aware of how obsessive Nemesis has become when it comes to controlling the discussions. I mean do you know how much time is required to sit here day in and day out, just censoring posts, suspending members and nuking threads? I mean what is the point? Might as well call it the "Goodluckintryingtohaveadiscussion.org" forum.

It's more accurate to recall the parable of the sower. Everything (and everyone) plays it's part.

[_just me]

Wow! That is a shockingly high number!

[Guest]

That's a number to keep in mind whenever someone brings up a reluctance to post at the MAD forum. 402 is the number of threads that Nemesis has shut down since January. Many of these discussions were initiated by faithful LDS apologist and a few of them were started by reputable LDS scholars. As I perused the ending of some of these discussions, the reasoning for the shut down wasn't always clear.

This anecdote also helped me understand why Nemesis thinks Shades is such a horrible moderator. By comparison, Nemesis is obsessive compulsive about controlling the day-to-day discussions, making sure they don't harm the image of his Church or his Church leaders. He averages shutting down two discussions per day for the past six months, and that's just insane. I can't even imagine how many posts he has edited, censored, or how many accounts he has suspended or banned.

I've been posting on boards and blogs longer than you have. I've been shown me the door often. Around 1990 or so I started out with debates on BBS echo boards, then lists; most of the lower-volume boards and lists involved debates between evangelicals and Mormons. I gravitated towards Compuserve's board for a while.

If I stepped over the line and pushed Mormonism too much -- out I went.
I was on one apologetic list and eased out for raising questions about the Grant Palmer reviews and their tone.

I'm on a semi-public list right now with some notable "Mormon" historians and they tossed Lou Midgley off. It took the moderators on that list weeks or months to approve my admission to the list because of long-standing emnity a certain western author has against me, who was on the list.

Moderation is the norm, not the exception. For MAD, it is their sandbox. They get to keep the creeps out. All boards except the very few do that.

]I think our problem is, the folks at MDD are upset because MDB is not run like their board. Folks here are upset because MDD is not run like MDB.

That's naïve to the extreme. If I were to summarize it:

This board is composed largely of MDD castoffs, bans and rejects. This board, as a consequence, focuses its venom on that board. The top pinned thread today on this board is meant to mock and demean that board. The very day somebody started that mocking thread, I started a competing one here mocking the various statements and idiosyncracies of the posters here. My thread wasn't pinned.

There are really creepy posters here. (Not all.) For instance, I have some real serious issues with the way you, a mod, have treated me. (Yes, you've protected me at times; I do know that.) But I don't think it is appropriate for a mod to tell a poster than his birth is of uncertain paternity and that his mother gives birth to puppies rather than to men.

MAD posters really and truly are creeped out by a few over here. That is really it.

[_Kevin Graham]

Well thanks for getting me all excited for nothing, bcspace. I was hoping you actually had an LDS forum in mind like this one. I think it should go without saying that the LDS forums are the way they are, because that's how they have to be in order to serve their purpose. A truly free, open discussion about the critical issues will almost always sway in favor of the critics. If not, then please provide an example where it hasn't. The best thing LDS apologetics can do is focus on the biblical, unfalsifiable stuff, which is mostly just a he interprets - she interprets kinda argument. And that stuff only appeals to those who actually give a crap about what the Bible says anyway. Many of us don't anymore.

But the stuff that actually falsifies the Church, you guys lose every time. The Book of Abraham is a great example, and while you guys think the various apologetic bunny trails provide room for "plausibility" this only works for apologists who have conditioned themselves to view these as victories. But in the real world, people who are not enamored with "technical plausibility" are generally more interested in probability. And all the evidence points to the fact that the LDS Church probably isn't true because Joseph Smith could not translate ancient documents. Since his ability to do so is provided the "keystone" of the Mormon religion, then it is logically based on fraud. And the way you guys keep coming up with various ways to scoot around the falsifiable, is just further evidence that you're not really willing to engage it wit intellectual honesty.

But all this relates to the fact that there really isn't an LDS operates forum that allows all discussions to run their course. They know from the outset that they're going to have to institute "Mormon think" mentality beforehand, using all the rationales that you and other apologists have come up with to hinder unbridled reasoning.

[_Kevin Graham]

And you're still wrong about activity rates, both worldwide and nation wide. But I'll start a thread about that later when I'm in a position to do the proper research.