Denying the holy ghost

[_sock puppet]

Denying the Holy Ghost (or Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost) is not a unique LDS concept. Jesus said it first and called it unforgivable. You can look it up.

Z gave the best LDS verse defining what LDS scripture understands this to mean from D&C 76.

Jason, when you say 'the best LDS verse' defining what LDS understand any topic to mean, I suppose that you are saying that the specified verse (on this topic, D&C 76) best encapsulates what you have heard LDS leaders talk and thus understand from your long LDS involvement about the topic. I say this because there's just a sketchy hierarchy at best of LDS scripture (BoM--most perfect book on earth, D&C--revealed commandments for this dispensation, Bible--as far as it's translated correctly, and PoGP--sort of the ugly step-child of LDS scripture). Also, I think it interesting that LDS scripture does not harmonize all that well for being 'the truth'.

Regarding D&C 76, I find verses 31 and 35 the most pertinent to my OP:

31Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—

* * *
35Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.

What does it mean to know and partake of the Lord's power? Does that mean having been ordained to any level of priesthood? Just the Melchizedek priesthood, since it is the Lord's power that is mentioned?

There's not much instruction on what the denial must entail for it to result in the denier being a son of perdition, except it is to deny "the trust and defy [the Lord's] power". That doesn't drill down into detail much.

Section 35 is instructive, however, in that it separates denial of "the Holy Spirit after having received it" from denying "the Only Begotten Son of the Father". The conjunctive "and" suggests that one that has known and received the Lord's power must, to end up a son of perdition, deny the Holy Ghost after receiving it and deny Jesus, the only begotten son of the father. One receives the Holy Ghost as part of the confirmation process following baptism.

So reading D&C 76, it would appear that anyone that has been baptized, confirmed, and then received the Melchizedek priesthood is a candidate to be a son of perdition if he thereafter both (a) denies the Holy Ghost, and (b) denies Jesus.

[_Inconceivable]

What does the Holy Ghost have to do with seeing jehovah in the flesh? If jehovah's there in the flesh, no need for the Holy Ghost.

Socks,

I've had spiritual confirmations that what I was picking up with my other 5 senses was legitimate.

My question that eventually shook me from my Mormon trance was: Is this spiritual knowledge legitimate? My answer became an emphatic "no".

I don't think there is such a thing as a "holy Ghost", but there are spirits. Spirits can lie, even when they are filling you with peace and love, even Mormon spirits. I know atheists don't want to consider such a notion as spirits, but they are real. They are infalable and they meddle even when it is done with good intentions.

For Mormonism to claim that truth confirmation from one of these Mormon spirit clowns is how we gain knowledge, well, that is the primary flaw in their argument. This notion will trouble any Mormon (or Christian for that matter). That is why my case may be so troubling to them. I will no longer accept a spiritual witness as truth confirmation.

[_Nightlion]

What does it mean to know and partake of the Lord's power? Does that mean having been ordained to any level of priesthood? Just the Melchizedek priesthood, since it is the Lord's power that is mentioned?

My Dear Sir,
Have you got me on ignore? Partaking of the Lord's power is the unction from on High, the earnest of salvation, the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, to be made a son or DAUGHTER of God, a conception of one as thereafter the SEED of God. This must be kept and not forgotten or considered a thing of naught and not trampled as if to say like Cain of old did say:

"Who is the Lord that I should know him." After he was initiated and walked and talked with God in the cool of the day, as is evidenced that the Lord spoke to him in a familiar manner after he had killed his brother, Abel.

[_sock puppet]

What does it mean to know and partake of the Lord's power? Does that mean having been ordained to any level of priesthood? Just the Melchizedek priesthood, since it is the Lord's power that is mentioned?

My Dear Sir,
Have you got me on ignore? Partaking of the Lord's power is the unction from on High, the earnest of salvation, the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, to be made a son or DAUGHTER of God, a conception of one as thereafter the SEED of God. This must be kept and not forgotten or considered a thing of naught and not trampled as if to say like Cain of old did say:

"Who is the Lord that I should know him." After he was initiated and walked and talked with God in the cool of the day, as is evidenced that the Lord spoke to him in a familiar manner after he had killed his brother, Abel.

No, Nightlion, but we use differing vocabularies. I would deduce from your post here that you are saying that one must have walked and talked with God to then deny God to be placed in this eternally precarious position.

[_Inconceivable]

What does it mean to know and partake of the Lord's power? Does that mean having been ordained to any level of priesthood? Just the Melchizedek priesthood, since it is the Lord's power that is mentioned?

My Dear Sir,
Have you got me on ignore? Partaking of the Lord's power is the unction from on High, the earnest of salvation, the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, to be made a son or DAUGHTER of God, a conception of one as thereafter the SEED of God. This must be kept and not forgotten or considered a thing of naught and not trampled as if to say like Cain of old did say:

"Who is the Lord that I should know him." After he was initiated and walked and talked with God in the cool of the day, as is evidenced that the Lord spoke to him in a familiar manner after he had killed his brother, Abel.

NL,
I read a great deal of platitudical mormonspeak in most of your posts. What is it that you truly believe behind this facade of big words?

I'm asking rhetorically, of course. I honestly don't think there is much behind the curtain that resembles your language. I'm guessing though, that after you remove all the fluff, there's a pretty decent guy there. I mean this as a compliment.

[_bcspace]

It makes me shudder just to think about it--about how crafty a tool JSJr came up with on that one.

On top of that, an uninformed person has about a 50/50 chance of selecting the Democratic Party which is an intrinsic denial of the Holy Ghost.

Insidious!

[_sock puppet]

It makes me shudder just to think about it--about how crafty a tool JSJr came up with on that one.

On top of that, an uninformed person has about a 50/50 chance of selecting the Democratic Party which is an intrinsic denial of the Holy Ghost.

Insidious!

bcspace, do you think that those that are in tune with and listening to the Holy Ghost will be guided away from the Democratic Party and towards the Republican Party?

[_Nightlion]

My Dear Sir,
Have you got me on ignore? Partaking of the Lord's power is the unction from on High, the earnest of salvation, the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, to be made a son or DAUGHTER of God, a conception of one as thereafter the SEED of God. This must be kept and not forgotten or considered a thing of naught and not trampled as if to say like Cain of old did say:

"Who is the Lord that I should know him." After he was initiated and walked and talked with God in the cool of the day, as is evidenced that the Lord spoke to him in a familiar manner after he had killed his brother, Abel.

NL,
I read a great deal of platitudical mormonspeak in most of your posts. What is it that you truly believe behind this facade of big words?

I'm asking rhetorically, of course. I honestly don't think there is much behind the curtain that resembles your language. I'm guessing though, that after you remove all the fluff, there's a pretty decent guy there. I mean this as a compliment.

I spouteth none mormonspeak platitudes.
What I speak to the Mormons shut their mouths at.

plat·i·tude
   [plat-i-tood, -tyood] Show IPA
–noun
1.
a flat, dull, or trite remark, especially one uttered as if it were fresh or profound.
2.
the quality or state of being flat, dull, or trite: the platitude of most political oratory.

I think that the fact that your mind shuts down reading me accounts for why it come off trite. It is very true that continually hit the same nail on the head, over and over and over again. I suppose it is dull. Or that you are dull of hearing. How is it though that NOBODY asks what's up?

I would think from a purely historic fascination of a real component of LDS lore people would like to flesh out the length and breadth of it. but NO!

But thanks anyways

[_Nightlion]

My Dear Sir,
Have you got me on ignore? Partaking of the Lord's power is the unction from on High, the earnest of salvation, the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, to be made a son or DAUGHTER of God, a conception of one as thereafter the SEED of God. This must be kept and not forgotten or considered a thing of naught and not trampled as if to say like Cain of old did say:

"Who is the Lord that I should know him." After he was initiated and walked and talked with God in the cool of the day, as is evidenced that the Lord spoke to him in a familiar manner after he had killed his brother, Abel.

No, Nightlion, but we use differing vocabularies. I would deduce from your post here that you are saying that one must have walked and talked with God to then deny God to be placed in this eternally precarious position.

Well, the walking and talking back in the day was much more common. Since men have thousands of years of carnal, devilish fallen natures that sort of communion with God, even with those truly born again is not happening. We are no longer on the borders of Eden.

[_Jason Bourne]

Denying the Holy Ghost (or Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost) is not a unique LDS concept. Jesus said it first and called it unforgivable. You can look it up.

Z gave the best LDS verse defining what LDS scripture understands this to mean from D&C 76.

Jason, when you say 'the best LDS verse' defining what LDS understand any topic to mean, I suppose that you are saying that the specified verse (on this topic, D&C 76) best encapsulates what you have heard LDS leaders talk and thus understand from your long LDS involvement about the topic. I say this because there's just a sketchy hierarchy at best of LDS scripture (Book of Mormon--most perfect book on earth, D&C--revealed commandments for this dispensation, Bible--as far as it's translated correctly, and PoGP--sort of the ugly step-child of LDS scripture). Also, I think it interesting that LDS scripture does not harmonize all that well for being 'the truth'.

Regarding D&C 76, I find verses 31 and 35 the most pertinent to my OP:

31Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—

* * *
35Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.

What does it mean to know and partake of the Lord's power? Does that mean having been ordained to any level of priesthood? Just the Melchizedek priesthood, since it is the Lord's power that is mentioned?

There's not much instruction on what the denial must entail for it to result in the denier being a son of perdition, except it is to deny "the trust and defy [the Lord's] power". That doesn't drill down into detail much.

Section 35 is instructive, however, in that it separates denial of "the Holy Spirit after having received it" from denying "the Only Begotten Son of the Father". The conjunctive "and" suggests that one that has known and received the Lord's power must, to end up a son of perdition, deny the Holy Ghost after receiving it and deny Jesus, the only begotten son of the father. One receives the Holy Ghost as part of the confirmation process following baptism.

So reading D&C 76, it would appear that anyone that has been baptized, confirmed, and then received the Melchizedek priesthood is a candidate to be a son of perdition if he thereafter both (a) denies the Holy Ghost, and (b) denies Jesus.

Here are some things I think will help:

http://eom.BYU.edu/index.php/Sons_of_Perdition

Author: Turner, Rodney

In LDS scripture Lucifer and cain are called Perdition, meaning "destruction" (D&C 76:26; Moses 5:24). The unembodied spirits who supported Lucifer in the war in heaven and were cast out (Moses 4:1-4) and mortals who commit the unpardonable sin against the Holy Ghost will inherit the same condition as Lucifer and Cain, and thus are called "sons of perdition."

Perdition is both a place and a spiritual condition. As a place, it is synonymous with that hell to which both unembodied and resurrected sons of perdition will be consigned following the last judgment (2 Ne. 28:23; D&C 29:38; TPJS, p. 361). This future kingdom of the devil will be devoid of any of the Spirit and glory of God. (D&C 88:24).

The spiritual condition of those in this realm is described metaphorically as a lake of unquenchable fire and brimstone and as "a worm [that] dieth not" (Jacob 6:10; D&C 76:44). They will be "vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God" (D&C 76:33). God's wrath will originate within them when they contrast his holiness and majesty with their own filthiness and ignominy (2 Ne. 9:14; Alma 12:14-17; Morm. 9:4-5; TPJS, p. 361). The Prophet Joseph Smith explained, "A man is his own tormentor and his own condemner…. The torment of disappointment in the mind of man is as exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstone" (TPJS, p. 357). Fire and brimstone characterize the person, not the place.

The awful realization that they are truly damned, have lost all favor with God, have rejected all that he represents, and have lost the opportunity for repentance will be compounded by their subjection to Lucifer and Cain, who are consumed with like misery and frustration (2 Ne. 2:27; Moses 1:22). Such is the ultimate "damnation of hell" (TPJS, p. 198; see Damnation).

Perdition is the second death: total banishment not only from God's literal presence but also from the influence of his Spirit (2 Ne. 9:15-16; Hel. 14:18; D&C 88:32). Those who sin against the Holy Ghost commit the unpardonable sin and will suffer the fulness of the second death (Alma 39:6; Hel. 14:16-19). All others will be saved eventually in one of the degrees of glory (D&C 76:40-43; JD 8:154).

Sons of perdition are not merely wicked; they are incorrigibly evil. In sinning against the revelations of the Holy Ghost, they have sinned against the greater light and knowledge of God. They willfully and utterly pervert principles of righteousness and truth with which they were once endowed, and transform them into principles of evil and deception. Joseph Smith declared, "You cannot save such persons; you cannot bring them to repentance" (TPJS, p. 358). No divine principle can cleanse the sons of perdition; following the last judgment, they will remain "filthy still" (D&C 29:44;88:35). It is revealed that "it had been better for them never to have been born" (D&C 76:32).

Those who become sons of perdition while in mortality will be resurrected with unglorified physical bodies and "rise to the damnation of their own filthiness" (TPJS, p. 361). Cain, thus resurrected, will then rule over the unembodied Lucifer (Moses 5:23; MD, p. 109).

It has been suggested that in the absence of the life-sustaining powers of God's Spirit, sons of perdition will eventually become disorganized and return to "native element" (JD 1:349-52; 5:271; 7:358-59). However, scripture declares that "the soul can never die" (Alma 12:20) and that in the Resurrection the spirit and the body are united "never to be divided" (Alma 11:45; cf. 12:18; D&C 93:33). The ultimate fate of sons of perdition will be made known only to those who are partakers thereof and will not be definitely revealed until the last judgment (D&C 29:27-30;43:33;76:43-48; TPJS, p. 24).

Few individuals have been identified as sons of perdition. Although Judas is often so regarded, there is a question whether he had received the Holy Ghost sufficiently to sin against it at the time of his betrayal of Christ (John 17:12; Smith, pp. 433-34).

(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith Section Six 1843-44, p.358)

"All sins shall be forgiven, except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against Him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy. This is the case with many apostates of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. When a man begins to be an enemy to this work, he hunts me, he seeks to kill me, and never ceases to thirst for my blood. He gets the spirit of the devil--the same spirit that they had who crucified the Lord of Life--the same spirit that sins against the Holy Ghost. You cannot save such persons; you cannot bring them to repentance; they make open war, like the devil, and awful is the consequence."

The comment about apostates is interesting. I think Joseph Smith was referencing some like the three witnesses.