How Saturday's Warrior and Johnny Lingo Hurt the Church

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_Everybody Wang Chung
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Re: How Saturday's Warrior and Johnny Lingo Hurt the Church

Post by _Everybody Wang Chung »

ajax18 wrote:Actually I lived amongst Polynesians for a time. Watch National Geographic and you'll see that wives being brought and sold are a part of nearly all the primitive/ancient cultures that exist today. Are you telling me that all sale of wives for cows in Polynesia originated from Mormonism? Secondly I never claimed to speak for Mormonism. How do you know I'm Mormon?


CFR please. Polynesians NEVER practiced what is portrayed in Johnny Lingo. I could recommend a couple of very interesting books on the anthropological study of Polynesian culture if you want to really learn about it.


ajax18 wrote: For Johnny Lingo it was cows, it's still the same thing. But you can only criticize the practice if it is a part of a caucasian culture. Johnny Lingo would have been off limits if he weren't Mormon.



First, I don't believe Johnny Lingo was Mormon. If he was Mormon, I think it would be fair to say that he didn't wear his garments.

Second, as set forth in the OP, my criticism of Johnny Lingo is based upon the fact that Mormonism is viewed in many parts of the country and world as being all about polygamy and treating women like chattel. Johnny Lingo certainly didn’t help dispel this myth. It would have been easy for the Church to make a film that didn't portray women as chattel, or that the value of a women is measured by how many cows she was bought and sold for.

You think the Church would do everything in its power to distance themselves from the stigma polygamy attached to Mormon women.
"I'm on paid sabbatical from BYU in exchange for my promise to use this time to finish two books."

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_Everybody Wang Chung
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Re: How Saturday's Warrior and Johnny Lingo Hurt the Church

Post by _Everybody Wang Chung »

Droopy wrote:
Please read the OP, Droopy. Thanks my friend.



I did. There is no philosophical argument there supporting your claims, only the explication of the claims themselves, which is why I have asked you so support them with cogent arguments, which you continue to avoid as the thread progresses.


Droopy, I don't think I can make this more clear for you. However, I will try once more. As set forth in the OP, and above, my criticism of Johnny Lingo is based upon the fact that Mormonism is viewed in many parts of the country and world as being all about polygamy and treating women like chattel. Johnny Lingo certainly didn’t help dispel this myth. It would have been easy for the Church to make a film that didn't portray women as chattel, or that the value of a women is measured by how many cows she was bought and sold for.

You think the Church would do everything in its power to distance themselves from the stigma polygamy attached to Mormon women.
"I'm on paid sabbatical from BYU in exchange for my promise to use this time to finish two books."

Daniel C. Peterson, 2014
_ajax18
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Re: How Saturday's Warrior and Johnny Lingo Hurt the Church

Post by _ajax18 »

CFR please. Polynesians NEVER practiced what is portrayed in Johnny Lingo.


Alright, I'm having a hard time finding a reference where cows were traded for wives, but

http://www.oldandsold.com/articles25/ma ... s-23.shtml

The higher her rank, the more her parents demand of the suitor ; consequently, needy young men often have to wait a long time for a wife. But if a swain is known to have " expectations," he may pay down a part of the purchase-money, and claim a girl as his fiancee, in which case she will not be given in marriage to another. The daughters of chiefs seldom marry early on account of the unreasonable demands of their fathers. A young man who dares to propose to the daughter of a chief and cannot pay the amount is liable to be heavily fined for his presumption


Cows are pretty synonymous with money in some cultures. I don't think it's to big a leap to imagine young men paying cows to the family of the woman they contract to marry. Whether it's cows or money, it's the same principle in my mind. Whether we like to admit it or not, it's true in Western culture as well, the prettier the girl, the more money you need to have. It's that way in all cutlures. That's why the movie is so applicable even today.
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_Droopy
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Re: How Saturday's Warrior and Johnny Lingo Hurt the Church

Post by _Droopy »

Droopy, I don't think I can make this more clear for you. However, I will try once more. As set forth in the OP, and above, my criticism of Johnny Lingo is based upon the fact that Mormonism is viewed in many parts of the country and world as being all about polygamy and treating women like chattel.


And that's an empirical claim, and I asked for a CFR because of that. That claim is either true or it isn't.

Johnny Lingo certainly didn’t help dispel this myth.


You have as yet not shown that your own claims here are not, in point of fact, the myths to be dispelled.

It would have been easy for the Church to make a film that didn't portray women as chattel, or that the value of a women is measured by how many cows she was bought and sold for.


It was a dowry price. The setting was another, traditional, non-western society (precisely the kind, ironically enough, so ofter romanticized and contrasted positively as superior to western, and in particular, American society by multiculturalists) in which Christian principles were manifest and applied within that context.

Yes, John, your tortured feministic politically correct witch burning of Johnny Lingo appears as strained and bizarre as it actually is.

You think the Church would do everything in its power to distance themselves from the stigma polygamy attached to Mormon women.


I think the idea that there was a stigma attached to Mormon woman when that film was made, or that such is in existence today, is a thigh slapping riot, quite as serious intellectually as claiming that Tookie Williams was a product of the Atlantic slave trade.

But you have, as yet, not adduced a serious defense of your claim that defending Johnny Lingo as a valuable story about self worth and love is equivalent to defending the Holocaust. This doesn't surprise me, as this would be a tall order even for the likes of Ward Churchill, Manning Marable, or Cornell West.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


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_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: How Saturday's Warrior and Johnny Lingo Hurt the Church

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Hello,

Has anyone been convinced to change political affiliation because of Mr. Blood's rantings?

Seems like a lot of effort and/or catharsis for such a small return...

V/R
Dr. ncfourme
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Everybody Wang Chung
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Re: How Saturday's Warrior and Johnny Lingo Hurt the Church

Post by _Everybody Wang Chung »

Droopy,

It's unfortunate, but not surprising that you feel nothing is wrong with Johnny Lingo. Misogyny is never an appropriate vehicle to instill values with our youth.

Let’s be honest, the Church has such a checkered past in the way that many women have been treated and many people still view the LDS Church as misogynistic and backward. Many people around the world still think we practice polygamy for goodness sake.

It was very bad form for the Church to make Johnny Lingo. The Church needs to do everything in its power to distance itself from its past treatment of women. Johnny Lingo certainly didn’t help dispel any of these notions many people hold in regards to how the Church treats women as chattel.
"I'm on paid sabbatical from BYU in exchange for my promise to use this time to finish two books."

Daniel C. Peterson, 2014
_ajax18
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Re: How Saturday's Warrior and Johnny Lingo Hurt the Church

Post by _ajax18 »

I think Johnny Lingo answers some very important moral questions about dating relationships. So many people simply take an attitude of, "All is fair in love and war," that the dating world is only equaled in its ugliness by an actual warzone. I'd like to see more movies like it.

In my experience most women I met in the Church loved and often quoted the movie Johnny Lingo. They weren't concerned with the remnants of sexist characteristics in marriage practices that exist in all cultures. Women being traded for cows was the not the issue of the story. Women liked it because the woman gets the better end of the deal in the movie. What are you going to say about Beauty and the Beast, that it promotes bestiality? The theme of that movie was, "seeing with your heart and going into the marriage relationship looking to give rather than to gain." But I suppose I could spin and twist it to say that it had it's roots in pagan bestiality practices and that the inventors of the fable should distance themselves from it.
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_Droopy
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Re: How Saturday's Warrior and Johnny Lingo Hurt the Church

Post by _Droopy »

Everybody Wang Chung wrote:Droopy,

It's unfortunate, but not surprising that you feel nothing is wrong with Johnny Lingo. Misogyny is never an appropriate vehicle to instill values with our youth.


Its quite clear that you've utterly lost this argument at this point, and equally clear, from the statement above, that you're well aware you have.

Let’s be honest, the Church has such a checkered past in the way that many women have been treated and many people still view the LDS Church as misogynistic and backward. Many people around the world still think we practice polygamy for goodness sake.


Ahh, now you extend your baseless claim to include people around the world. I see. No reference for the initial claim. In any case, I'm not at all aware of this checkered, un-politically correct past regarding the way "woman have been treated." Could you elucidate upon that?

It was very bad form for the Church to make Johnny Lingo. The Church needs to do everything in its power to distance itself from its past treatment of women. Johnny Lingo certainly didn’t help dispel any of these notions many people hold in regards to how the Church treats women as chattel.


I don't know what your talking about, but then, neither do you, so at least we're equal on those grounds.

In any case, all this leftist pseudo-moral posturing is so old and tired as to be rather banal, at this point.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Everybody Wang Chung
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Re: How Saturday's Warrior and Johnny Lingo Hurt the Church

Post by _Everybody Wang Chung »

Droopy wrote:
Let’s be honest, the Church has such a checkered past in the way that many women have been treated and many people still view the LDS Church as misogynistic and backward. Many people around the world still think we practice polygamy for goodness sake.


Ahh, now you extend your baseless claim to include people around the world. I see.


I'm not sure why I even bother, but that claim was made in my OP. My OP states in pertintent part, "Let’s face it, Mormonism is viewed in many parts of the country and world as being all about polygamy and treating women like chattel. Johnny Lingo certainly didn’t help dispel this myth."

Droopy, there is no point in trying to discuss this with you when you won't even read the OP.

Droopy wrote:I don't know what your talking about, but then, neither do you, so at least we're equal on those grounds..


Call it a hunch, but you probably don't know what I'm talking about because you haven't read the OP. I don't know what your talking about because you are not making any sense. All I can gather from your posts is that you are angry because Johnny Lingo represents the Zionist anti-leftist propaganda machine? Whatever. I give up.
"I'm on paid sabbatical from BYU in exchange for my promise to use this time to finish two books."

Daniel C. Peterson, 2014
_Droopy
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Re: How Saturday's Warrior and Johnny Lingo Hurt the Church

Post by _Droopy »

I'm not sure why I even bother, but that claim was made in my OP. My OP states in pertintent part, "Let’s face it, Mormonism is viewed in many parts of the [b]country and world as being all about polygamy and treating women like chattel.[/b] Johnny Lingo certainly didn’t help dispel this myth."


That's three times now, I believe, so...

CFR, CFR, CFR.


Call it a hunch, but you probably don't know what I'm talking about because you haven't read the OP.


No, its because its not even plausible and you haven't as yet gone beyond simply stating opinions to the point of cogent argument. Your dancing and prancing thus far does not bode well, indeed, for ever reaching that juncture.

I don't know what your talking about because you are not making any sense. All I can gather from your posts is that you are angry because Johnny Lingo represents the Zionist anti-leftist propaganda machine? Whatever. I give up.


Case closed.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
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