Am I responsible for the "culture" of MormonDiscussions.com?

[_Blixa]

Belmont,

You are conflating the issue that Blixa is raising. I suppose you think that it somehow has to do with you. Not intending to speak for Blixa, I think she is talking about her being accused of making death threads in the SGW affair.

Death threads? What are they? Clothes with skulls and crossbones embroidered on them?

Or did you mean death threats?

Maybe whoever said that was just commenting on her avatar, which is rather scary in a black-cute sort of way.

But if not, and someone was seriously accusing her of threatening somebody, then that's the sort of thing that ought to be moderated.

Regards,
Pahoran

What Jersey is describing, and is partly what I did have in mind, was something that came up in l'affaire SeattleGhostWriter. In the original thread, I had remarked on what I felt was the poor quality of SGW's writing and the fact that by including his photograph avatar with it, it suggested an interpretation that the author was the protagonist. I found that kind of a creepy effect for a piece of erotica. In reply to me, the poster Spurven Ten Sing, a poster I often joke with, posted back to me a thumbnail of SGW's avatar with a kind of cheesy "come on line." I thought that was a bit much, so in reply to Spurven I posted a very hokey .gif of a ouija board spelling out D I E. If you look at the original thread you will see that my .gif was posted after block quoting Spurven, and thus in response to him.

SGW misinterpreted this as some kind of death threat to himself. Even after I explained the misreading, he continued to natter on about death threats until over on MDD it seemed to be taken as fact that people here were issuing in real life death threats. This was also picked up and repeated on other boards as fact during the entire contretemps. I explained myself to SGW, and even suggested that although he had been embarrassed by what people had said about his writing, he could actually turn this negative into a positive: this board has many posters who are published writers, academics, writing teachers and publishing professionals. I invited him to stick around and make use of these unique resources. I even offered to send him my syllabi and materials from the Detective Fiction course I regularly teach, since I noticed he was interested in that genre.

I got about a dozen pm's from people taking me up on my offer for pedagogical materials and tutorials. Truthdancer even suggested we could maybe make an off topic forum that could function as a writer's workshop. But SGW made no response to these suggestions and offers. It's too bad.

There are a few other cases where posters have spread lies or distorted versions about something I've written or posted. And a long running case in which, though I originally extended my experience as a historical researcher to a poster, I was met with a number of lies and misrepresentations about his work, interests and accomplishments.

I love the exchange of ideas made possible by the internet. Just this last week, even the middle of all this hooha I had two miraculous bits of information fall into my lap via connections I've made on this board. Information that will help me extend what I thought were permanent dead ends in two writing projects. I'll never get over how marvelous such experiences are. I guess that's why I'm so disappointed when people squander the possibilities for enlarging human connections and knowledge.

[_Dr. Shades]

Pahoran:

Thank you very much for taking the time to type that up. There's a lot of food for thought there.

Perhaps I should designate the Telestial Forum as the repository for ANY thread about an individual who posts here, no matter the tenor thereof?

As an aside, I didn't accuse Nemesis of submitting the copyright violation notice. I realize that that was 100% SeattleSmutWriter's doing.

Jersey Girl:

The guest views didn't go up when MD&D posted a link to us. They merely began being visible once I figured out how to make guests show up in the "who's online" field.

[_Kishkumen]

A few quibbles aside (and minor ones at that), I like Pahoran's post and think it is worthy of consideration. At the very least, personal threads need to be confined to the Telestial Forum ("the anything-goes forum for flaming, venting, and personal attacks"), and this is coming from someone who likes the personal attack threads.

I agree that personal attacks should be relegated to the Telestial Forum. As for the notion that somehow the division of the board into fora modeled on the LDS afterlife is mockery, I fail to see it. Never have I thought that this was a swipe at Mormonism. Same with the eternal progression according to number of posts. Again, don't see it. As an active, believing Mormon I doubt I would have been offended by these things in the least. I guess that just goes to show that there are differing levels of sensitivity about such matters.

[Guest]

Hello Dr. Shades,

Keep in mind most folks from MAD&B, er, MD&D would love nothing more than to either see this board go away, or become irrelevant.

The FACT that they lurk or post on a regular basis is proof enough this board is having a real impact on discussions relating to Mormonism. REAL discussions. They don't want it. They need you to change this board to the point where they can influence Mormon-related discussions back to their parameters. That means real discussions about Mormonism are done.

The bottom line is those people, the Mopologists, are held to their claims, behaviors, and words on this board. They hate that. They can bitch and moan about "personal attacks" all they want, but in the vast majority of incidents it is they who initiate terrible behavior. Just because they get it in return doesn't mean they're victims. It's a tactic to shut down discussion of Mormonism. They already got the board shut down once, and they got you to remove the IMG link capability. I don't think they should have any more influence... After all, how much influence do you have over their board and its operations?

V/R
Dr. Cameron

[_Kishkumen]

They need you to change this board to the point where they can influence Mormon-related discussions back to their parameters. That means real discussions about Mormonism are done.

I think this is a real danger. Simon's activity here should be a clear warning to everyone. Simon has long made it his explicit purpose to mold this board in his own image by mindlessly harassing people who criticize the LDS Church or its apologists. We should be willing to listen to what the naysayers have to contribute, but then choose judiciously how far we are willing to go in accommodating them. I would say, for example, that in Pahoran's post, there was one idea that really ought to be taken up. The rest of it was just hypersensitive bellyaching about how offensive this board is. I am not saying that that part should be completely ignored, but--when it gets to the point of rearranging the board to suit that kind of criticism--we should avoid destructive changes that transform everything cool about the board out of existence.

[_Inconceivable]

Hi Dr. Shades,

Perhaps there is a nice place for members to be relegated that behave badly. I would suggest that those who are unwilling to abide by the extremely liberal rules of the board be permitted only to post in Outer Darkness - either on a permanent or probationary basis. Perhaps OD ought to be a place where only civil discourse should be tolerated as well.

If the law abiding members of the MD family should choose to visit the vapid, we know where they're at. What better place to send the weeping, wailing teeth nashers anyways?

This includes anyone engaged in otherwise attacking or attempting to destroy the agency of the board.

What are your thoughts?

ps - by the way, I skipped over the last 9 pages. If this has already been suggested, I'll just agree it's a great idea.

[_sock puppet]

I agree with Dr. Cam.

One need look no further than the FARMS Review and the personal attacks at authors of books of criticism to realize that their poor-us, victimization claims re personal attacks are a sham. It is their modus operandi.

I believe many critics would like MDB to become nothing more than a reflection of MAD. I've asked more than once of Simon Belmont, for example, what his purpose is here. No response. The critics' main purpose here is to try to stifle any discussion of Mormonism that is not all praise and halelujahs. Somehow that others do not share their viewpoint about Mormonism and as dissenters are allowed to get together here to discuss issues about Mormonism is an afront to them, though they are not under any compunction to be or remain here. They seek to do to MDB what JSJr and Hyrum Smith did to the Nauvoo Expositor.

Some of the regulars here who are not defenders but complain of the tone, complain that there are not lofty discussions of Mormon topics have not started a thread on a Mormon topic in how long? Some do not contribute to substantive threads others started, but simply complain that 'can't we be more civil to each other' and discuss the substance.

In either instance, their purpose here is to try to prevent others from having a free exchange. That is an anathema to some. But free is free, even if that means that there will be some elements of the jungle. I am not sure why, but it seems as summers arrive, the cry by these elements for more rules, stricter enforcement is renewed. So the 2011 silly season has begun. Watch as the hoity-toity handwringing continues.

The most ironic thing is that the Celestial Forum is not nearly as frequented as the Terrestrial Forum. Why? Given a choice even here, within just MDB, where do they choose to visit? The "awful", "uncivil" Terrestrial Forum. Since they have the Celestial Forum available to them, why do they want to turn the Terrestrial Forum into being a knock off of the less frequented Celestial Forum? Each of these complainers wants the liveliness of this place, and each has a different aspect of 'civility' he or she wants. But that brand is already available to them, at MAD and in the Celestial.

The simple fact is that due to MDB and its current situation, posters/lurkers of Mormon issues have a choice. If they cannot handle the rough and tumble that comes with freedom, they can go to the stilted confines of MAD, for example, where thread after thread is summarily closed. There, their sensibilities can be coddled. If on the other hand they want to hear and engage in discussion and debate on differing points of view, MDB provides that opportunity. It is a shame each time they succeed in causing MDB to become an inch closer to being MAD Jr.

[Guest]

Hello,

In this thread Dr. Shades is being thoughtful and introspective reference changing this board to suit the tastes of Mopologists and their enablers. I understand that. What some are failing to understand is this:

1) We have no influence nor say over how MAD, er, MDD is ran. So, why should they have any influence or say over how MDD is ran? They already got it shut down once & the IMG link capability removed.

2) Mopologists are clearly instigators & perpetually nasty. Just because they're treated, mostly in response to their vicious posting behavior, the way they treat others doesn't give them moral authority or victim status.

For example, in this thread (and it's only two short pages long) started by Mr. Droopy I'll catalogue all his behavior that leads to the kind of response he and others then use to attempt to alter how this board is moderated or ran:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18741

- the withering scrutiny of Aimee Semple McJack <- Changes username to slight her

- this evangelical Valkyrie

- suffocating under the next dog-pile of calumny and castigation

- nothing more than a bloody red bone thrown to your own bigotry.

- and spawned at the Trailerpark.

- It must be all the old beer cans in the pond.

- a gang of Crips mauling a passerby on a street corner

- Blah, blah, blah...

- the only person I ever actually used sexual references about as personal jabs here was male <- A lie

This was a realtively tame thread started by Mr. Droopy where he only contributed 5 posts. Yet notice the deeply personal and insulting language he uses that was completely unnecessary; not only that, but he drops a bald faced lie in there, too!

Just about every Mopologist could be catalogued in a similar manner, so why in the world is there this sense that it's the Critics who are overly aggressive? The Critics are the ones who are simply treating the Mopologists the way they treat the entire board. I think changing this board to suit the sensibilities of perpetually unhinged Mopologists is a terrible idea. I mean, sheesh, look at Mr. Pahoran's post... It's a content-free gripefest about how mean Critics are. Hi-lar-ious.

Dr. Shades. Ignore them. They don't want your vision to succeed. They want it to go away. They're unhinged precisely because your vision for this board is working. Ignore them.

V/R
Doc C

[_Simon Belmont]

I believe many critics would like MDB to become nothing more than a reflection of MAD. I've asked more than once of Simon Belmont, for example, what his purpose is here. No response. The critics' main purpose here is to try to stifle any discussion of Mormonism that is not all praise and halelujahs.

No response?

I've explicitly stated my "purpose" here more than once. I enjoyed lurking and occasionally posting on ZLMB, and I believe this board is the natural progression of it.

Kishkumen seems to think I've made it perfectly clear:

Simon's activity here should be a clear warning to everyone. Simon has long made it his explicit purpose to mold this board in his own image by mindlessly harassing people who criticize the LDS Church or its apologists.

I "mindlessly harass" only those who "mindlessly harass" my faith, like the disease "Joseph," and the vulgar child "CamNC4Me."

Others I am perfectly fine with, even friendly toward, but am often met with condescension and skepticism.

[_Chap]

I largely agree with this, and with the preceding post by Dr CamNC4Me.

I see no point in trying to convert this board into a clone of MAD. Those who prefer to post in a protected zone can either stay in MAD for good, or visit only the Celestial Forum of MDB - although even in that environment they may be shocked to find that threads are not closed down as soon as a critic starts to get the upper hand.

I agree with Dr. Cam.

One need look no further than the FARMS Review and the personal attacks at authors of books of criticism to realize that their poor-us, victimization claims re personal attacks are a sham. It is their modus operandi.

I believe many critics would like MDB to become nothing more than a reflection of MAD. I've asked more than once of Simon Belmont, for example, what his purpose is here. No response. The critics' main purpose here is to try to stifle any discussion of Mormonism that is not all praise and halelujahs. Somehow that others do not share their viewpoint about Mormonism and as dissenters are allowed to get together here to discuss issues about Mormonism is an afront to them, though they are not under any compunction to be or remain here. They seek to do to MDB what JSJr and Hyrum Smith did to the Nauvoo Expositor.

Some of the regulars here who are not defenders but complain of the tone, complain that there are not lofty discussions of Mormon topics have not started a thread on a Mormon topic in how long? Some do not contribute to substantive threads others started, but simply complain that 'can't we be more civil to each other' and discuss the substance.

In either instance, their purpose here is to try to prevent others from having a free exchange. That is an anathema to some. But free is free, even if that means that there will be some elements of the jungle. I am not sure why, but it seems as summers arrive, the cry by these elements for more rules, stricter enforcement is renewed. So the 2011 silly season has begun. Watch as the hoity-toity handwringing continues.

The most ironic thing is that the Celestial Forum is not nearly as frequented as the Terrestrial Forum. Why? Given a choice even here, within just MDB, where do they choose to visit? The "awful", "uncivil" Terrestrial Forum. Since they have the Celestial Forum available to them, why do they want to turn the Terrestrial Forum into being a knock off of the less frequented Celestial Forum? Each of these complainers wants the liveliness of this place, and each has a different aspect of 'civility' he or she wants. But that brand is already available to them, at MAD and in the Celestial.

The simple fact is that due to MDB and its current situation, posters/lurkers of Mormon issues have a choice. If they cannot handle the rough and tumble that comes with freedom, they can go to the stilted confines of MAD, for example, where thread after thread is summarily closed. There, their sensibilities can be coddled. If on the other hand they want to hear and engage in discussion and debate on differing points of view, MDB provides that opportunity. It is a shame each time they succeed in causing MDB to become an inch closer to being MAD Jr.