How many posters on MD were once apologists?

[_mentalgymnast]

I have never been a true apologist but as a devout, believing member felt like I was a vocal defender of the LDS church in my little corner of the world.

This would have been pre-Internet so I followed the requests of the prophet and invited friends over for discussions, interacted with numerous critics, read all the FARMS stuff, and thought I was effective in my desire to share the truth. You know, I took the command, "every member a missionary," seriously.

I was a fan of Nibley, read all his stuff and believed it, (sigh), believed all the garbage the prophets stated, (not realizing they were just sharing their very uninformed option), and truly thought science, new information, and discoveries would support the LDS church teachings and beliefs.

To be honest I am very embarrassed about it all.

I wish there was a way to apologize to the many people with whom I wasted their time, and I wish there was a way to take back the time I wasted. It is one of my biggest regrets.

~td~

Hi TD,

Over the years I've come to realize that whether I'm looking at apologetics or what the Mormon critics have to say, I'm receiving the interpretations and opinions of human beings. This is what is referred to in the Book of Mormon as the "arm of flesh".

2 Nephi 4:34

34 O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.


2 Nephi 28:31

31 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

So to rely solely upon human beings and their interpretations and opinions to resolve truth claims in regards to the LDS church is an exercise in futility.

Regards,
MG

[_lostindc]

Runtu or Ggraham are you out there? I am really interested in hearing your stories: (a) because of the respect I have for you folks, and (b) because you both mingled with some of the MI or FAIR LDS folks.

[_Buffalo]

Hi TD,

Over the years I've come to realize that whether I'm looking at apologetics or what the Mormon critics have to say, I'm receiving the interpretations and opinions of human beings. This is what is referred to in the Book of Mormon as the "arm of flesh".

2 Nephi 4:34

34 O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.


2 Nephi 28:31

31 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

So to rely solely upon human beings and their interpretations and opinions to resolve truth claims in regards to the LDS church is an exercise in futility.

Regards,
MG

There is no other kind of arm to rely on but the arm of flesh. Well, except maybe the robotic kind. Sure, they're more reliable, and stronger too. But you won't be so glad you embraced them once Skynet becomes self-aware.

[_Jason Bourne]

I was a hobby apologist.

[_MsJack]

Mike Reed - He did a book review for FARMS back in 2004.

Two ex-apologists that don't have accounts here:

There was a guy who used to post on the now-defunct Answering Mormonism forum along with myself and Kevin Graham and Wade Englund, named Michael Crow. He was just a few years older than I am and a young apologist at the time. He stopped believing quite a few years ago (not sure if he ever formally left the church).

Then there's Kevin Winters, who used to post at ZLMB quite a bit. Not sure what he's up to these days. His blog on Buddhism & Yoga hasn't been updated in over a year.

[_TrashcanMan79]

I don't know if my old MAD posts survived this last board overhaul, but I actually apostatized while actively participating there (inspired, embarrasingly enough, by my reading The God Delusion).

[_mentalgymnast]

There is no other kind of arm to rely on but the arm of flesh.

Do you know that for a fact? If not, you need to allow for the possibility.

Regards,
MG

[_EAllusion]

Then there's Kevin Winters, who used to post at ZLMB quite a bit. Not sure what he's up to these days. His blog on Buddhism & Yoga hasn't been updated in over a year.

!

[_mentalgymnast]

There is no other kind of arm to rely on but the arm of flesh.

Do you know that for a fact? If not, you need to allow for the possibility.

Regards,
MG

In other words's, allowing for the possibility that it is God who reveals truth, it would be an exercise in futility, as I said, for us to rely solely upon the apologists and/or the critics to resolve the truth claims of the LDS church.

Regards,
MG

[_Jason Bourne]

Half way through my mission i started becoming an apologist. A little over half a year after my mission, participating on the MAD board and actually reading all the sources rather than only reading the FAIR/FARMS / apologetics it wasn't long before I gave up on apologetics. Another year later I was an apostate. Apologetics put my testimony in ruin faster and harsher than any "anti-mormon" material.

I still remember going on MADb and always getting a kick out of DCP, hamblin, etc. remarks, witty insults, dismissals, and their overall argumentative and superior behavior/attitude towards most critics. It was amusing for a month or two, then it became a tiresome. They rarely addressed the criticism and when called out would simply paste FAIR/FARM links as a response. Naturally I read it all and in many cases the links never answered the questions or were simply inadequate. It wasn't long before I got sick of this behavior and began to question many of the conclusions. After reading all sources, both pro and critical, it wasn't long before I found myself disagreeing with many of the apologist responses. Another very problematic behavior with the apologists was to simply dismiss the prophets, seers and revelators they profess to believe in. It did not matter if the prophet said he was speaking in the name of the Lord, it was simply his opinion if in fact what he said was at odds with the apologist' conclusions. Eventually it was too much work to try to find a way to believe in the church when its prophets are anything but that, the apologists lie about doctrine and practice character assassination rather than attempt to give rebuttals to the criticism, and the church can't be honest about its past and present. Thanks MAD, FAIR, FARMS, and all you rambunctious apologists, you made it all so clear.

I think my experience was not dissimilar other than it started later in life for me. I have always dabbled in reading what mostly EV critics had to say and debating with such in real life. I liked to argue with anti's when I was a missionary and when I ran into them at temple open houses or LDS pageants. With the advent of the internet I got more interested. I was fairly well read and even knew about many controversial issues. But there were a few I ran across that started to trouble me. I turned to FARMS and FAIR and for some time was happy with the responses. However over time they seemed to start ringing hollow. As was noted above often the criticism was ignored and the critic was attacked. And often what was addressed was dismissed in some ways to flippantly. Then it seemed, as again noted above, that so much was dismissed as opinions of those the Church had taught spoke for God. Personally I did not and do not expect perfection. However more and more got tossed on the trash heap of speculation to the point that I wondered what we could trust from these Prophets. Then it came to the point really that some things just became indefensible at least for me. I could not feel good about the argument I and others were making. We downplayed so much, sought excuses for so much, justified some things (like failed prophecy) by using the Bible and history from other religions. How the indefensible things or errors from other faith traditions helped us I am not sure.

Well I am not happy with where this led but it is what it it.