For Nemesis...

[_Dr. Shades]

I think that a "gray area" that has been allowed to exist is that if a quick "one-liner" personal attack was present in a post in Terrestrial, but the body of the post remained on-topic, we were allowing the posts to slide.

Yep, that's pretty much how I've been doing it. Preserving the context of the thread and the replies therewithin (is that a word?) has been an overarching concern.

If we actually "cracked down" a bit more on that rule, and basically stated that, no matter what...if a blatant personal attack was posted, that post would be moved to Telestial, I think that would make a difference.

That's probably the best idea. Let's do it that way from now on.

One question I keep asking myself is why in the name of all that is holy do we give a flying flip about what Nemesis thinks about MDB???? We are positively falling all over ourselves in a pointless exercise to somehow please Nemesis/MDD??

Oh, don't worry; we're not. I'm addressing all the things that our own members have brought up in the "Am I responsible for the 'culture' of MormonDiscussions.com?" thread.

Look, I'm all for change. I DO believe that the blatant personal attacks don't belong and stifle discussion.

And that's a good enough reason to have this dialogue, Nemesis or no Nemesis.

If we want to change to better ourselves, then lets do it. But to change because Nemesis said we should?? Shameful.

Oh no, that's not it at all. If we did what Nemesis wanted us to do, then we'd close up shop entirely.

It's akin to those who say they are only righteous because they are afraid of God's punishment vs the atheist who says he is moral because it's the right thing to do. Are we changing because we fear/want to please Nemesis or because it's the right thing to do??

Because it's the right thing to do. Why not make this place as comfortable as possible for the people who will be posting here?

Shades,

You didn't address my comments regarding the already existing rules or my comment regarding this:

The easiest method, I believe, would be simply to move personal attack posts directly into the Telestial and let folks protest in that area of the board.

This shouldn't be complex, it's simply a matter of ACTING on the already existing rules.

You're right. I'll put the word out that we should start doing things that way from now on.

We have been lenient on suspensions for infractions on this, and as far as I'm concerned, "the party's over". Everyone here should understand the implication involved with messing with someone's in real life identity. If there is ANY more incident of this, the offender needs to be banned, or, at the very least, suspended.

I think the disabling of the image "hotlink" feature has solved that problem to a large degree.

[_Chap]

One question I keep asking myself is why in the name of all that is holy do we give a flying flip about what Nemesis thinks about MDB???? We are positively falling all over ourselves in a pointless exercise to somehow please Nemesis/MDD??

I have to say I agree with this. I don't care in the slightest what people at the MAD board think about this board. Why should we? The only way to please most of them would be to close the place down entirely.

The only changes that should be made here are ones that are demanded by the majority of posters on the board, not merely by the most vocal.

I am perfectly happy with the board pretty much as it is: a little more rule enforcement might be a good idea, but one can only expect so much from moderators who are volunteers with lives of their own.

[_Yoda]

Most posters here can write well enough to make our points without using words like "douchebag." For those who aren't, the upcoming writer's room may be of value. OTOH, isn't the Pahoran-style of insult just as objectionable? He doesn't use words like "douchebag" but he aims for the liver and gives it just as good a twist in his passive-aggressive way.

What I get tired of seeing are responses that are purely insult and no content, no matter what the vocabulary used. It gets pretty complicated making rules and enforcing them. Who wants to see nothing here except arguments over whether an insult is bad enough to delete?

What if, instead of making a bunch more rules, the moderators behind the scenes pm offending posters and ask them to tone it down. Maybe they will comply.

We have PM'd. It works for a while, but human nature always rears it's ugly head again. ;-)

I agree that BOTH types of attacks are attacks nonetheless..whether they are passive-aggressive or just plain aggressive.

I think that Jersey Girl is right. We have existing rules that we have allowed to sometimes slide into a gray area. Let's just be more diligent about enforcing the existing rules. Maybe we could add a statement clarifying that blatant personal attacks will be routed to the Telestial Forum...no exceptions.

[_Yoda]

I think the disabling of the image "hotlink" feature has solved that problem to a large degree.

Not really. Yes, it does solve a portion of the problem. But people could still "out" someone, or link to someone's Facebook page. Are we going to disable the link function as well? I can tell you that if we did that, we likely would have no posters left.

I really think that the img code feature needs to be readdressed. I would like posters to have the ability to post images...but, again, it has to be within the guidelines set, or they simply lose their privilege to post here, period.

[_Bond James Bond]

Concerning images. While not allowing pictures might solve the Joseph problem, not allowing pictures might lead to decreased poster activity. I've already heard from more than a couple who will stop posting if images remain disabled.

[_beastie]

One question I keep asking myself is why in the name of all that is holy do we give a flying flip about what Nemesis thinks about MDB???? We are positively falling all over ourselves in a pointless exercise to somehow please Nemesis/MDD??

Look, I'm all for change. I DO believe that the blatant personal attacks don't belong and stifle discussion.

If we want to change to better ourselves, then lets do it. But to change because Nemesis said we should?? Shameful.

It's akin to those who say they are only righteous because they are afraid of God's punishment vs the atheist who says he is moral because it's the right thing to do. Are we changing because we fear/want to please Nemesis or because it's the right thing to do??

I agree that we should ignore Nemesis.

I think that exmormons carry some baggage that internet defenders of the faith like the manipulate. Exmormons, like all Mormons, had been taught in the church that apostates leave the church due to character flaws or sins. So once the person in question becomes an apostate, he/she may have some underlying anxiety about believers inspecting him/her and pointing to "sin" or character flaws. I think believers capitalize on that tendency by frequently trying to shame us. "What's wrong with you all, why can't you leave the church alone, why do you libel us" etc etc. In reality, exmormon behavior is no better or worse than the behavior of internet defenders of the faith, in my experience.

So ignore Nemesis. If change is needed for reasons outside Nemesis and the charges of the formerly MAD, then by all means, change. But in no way do I support change as a direct result of the criticism of the formerly MAD.

[_Yoda]

But in no way do I support change as a direct result of the criticism of the formerly MAD.

I don't really think that is what anyone is talking about here.

As many of us stated on the prior page of the thread, these are changes that we are discussing for the good of the community. It really doesn't have anything to do with Nemesis.

The board being taken down was a "wake-up call", and was, I think, probably a needed catalyst for some of this change that I think should have happened a while ago.

As I stated earlier to Scottie, the only reason that this thread is titled "For Nemesis" is because he misrepresented one of my statements and I wanted to clarify.

[_bcspace]

How about all antiMormonism to the Telestial as well, leaving actual criticism?

In the eyes of believing Mormons, all criticism is anti-Mormonism.

Not true.

So your suggestion wouldn't work.

Only if the representative of the other side wasn't intellectually honest.

[_Chap]

But in no way do I support change as a direct result of the criticism of the formerly MAD.

I don't really think that is what anyone is talking about here.

As many of us stated on the prior page of the thread, these are changes that we are discussing for the good of the community.

How many would that 'many' be, roughly?

The board being taken down was a "wake-up call", and was, I think, probably a needed catalyst for some of this change that I think should have happened a while ago.

Hmm. I ask you to accept that some people on this board (maybe even 'many'?) may see the board being taken down for about a day as a sign of nothing more than that an ISP can react unreasonably to a totally disproportionate complaint by an overwrought person about an inappropriate image being displayed for 18 minutes or so. The Terrestrial Forum can be a bit vulgar and rough sometimes, but no-one is forced to take part, and the Celestial Forum is always there for those whose sensibilities are more delicate.

I would certainly not like to see this single brief incident become a pretext for Board Nannyism to sweep all before it. I feel this place is pretty well fine with the rules as they are at present. We can of course always discuss the details of how they are enforced.

[_Yoda]

I would certainly not like to see this single brief incident become a pretext for Board Nannyism to sweep all before it. I feel this place is pretty well fine with the rules as they are at present. We can of course always discuss the details of how they are enforced.

If you have been following the discussion, enforcing the existing rules is exactly what is being discussed.

We aren't talking about creating any new rules. All we are talking about is enforcing the personal attacks rule that is currently active.

Basically, from this point forward, if someone makes a blatant personal attack in Terrestrial, it will be moved to Telestial.