MCB wrote:Yuppers. Before Martin Luther had his temper tantrum with the Bible, both Maccabees were very important. LOL
His temper tantrum was much more than that. If that was all his temper tantrum was about, we wouldn't have a Lutheran church today.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
"If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon, if you believe that God spake to us three witnesses by his own voice, then I tell you that in June, 1838, God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens and told me to 'separate myself from among the Latter Day Saints, for as they sought to do unto me, so it should be done unto them.'"
"I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. ... Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I." - Joseph Smith, 1844
why me wrote: This is a problem for the critics. If Oliver was in on the scam, he would need to be the most awful sociopath in history.
That's not a problem for critics. Even if you believe Oliver Cowdery was in on the scam, and his behavior is strange for someone in on the scam, it is still FAAAAAAAAAAAR easier to believe that than Joseph Smith's story of how the Book of Mormon came about. Going from "that is strange behavior for someone involved in the scam" to "that means the Book of Mormon must be true" is a leap in logic equivalent of jumping the grand canyon. We don't know what Cowdery's motivations were for behaving the way he did.
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die." - Captain Moroni - 'Address to the Inhabitants of Canada' 1775
"If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon, if you believe that God spake to us three witnesses by his own voice, then I tell you that in June, 1838, God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens and told me to 'separate myself from among the Latter Day Saints, for as they sought to do unto me, so it should be done unto them.'"
Really? I don't think so. We need to understand the complexity of a human life and the influence of the mind as it moves along in that life. Many things are said and experienced during that life. But with david, we just need to know that he had his testimony of the Book of Mormon put on this tombstone. And such a request does not come lightly when one is going to meet one's maker.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
Baker wrote: MG - where are the JoD references? Did you check out my link from the apparent eyewitness? Earlier in the thread I mentioned that his deathbed testimony didn't come from an unbiased source, do you disagree? Did you read Whitmer's whole address? Do you agree with the qualification he imposes on acceptance of his Book of Mormon witness? Would you give the same deference to a competing religious claim?
Nothing related to the Book of Mormon comes from an unbiased source. Even the second or third hand accounts from people critical at that time. David Whitmer over and over again had to tell his story and bear his testimony as did the other witnesses who lived to a ripe old age. But in the end, they never denied what they saw with their eyes or felt with their hands.
And good ol david had his testimony put on his tombstone.
Do you believe that God spoke to Whitmer in 1838 and told him to separate himself from the saints? He died never have denied that either.
"I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. ... Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I." - Joseph Smith, 1844
DarkHelmet wrote: That's not a problem for critics. Even if you believe Oliver Cowdery was in on the scam, and his behavior is strange for someone in on the scam, it is still FAAAAAAAAAAAR easier to believe that than Joseph Smith's story of how the Book of Mormon came about. Going from "that is strange behavior for someone involved in the scam" to "that means the Book of Mormon must be true" is a leap in logic equivalent of jumping the grand canyon. We don't know what Cowdery's motivations were for behaving the way he did.
If you are a human being, you will know that Oliver would need to be the worst sociopath in history to continue with a scam that was causing pain and death to so many people who believed in the scam. He would be the scum of the earth. But he does not seem to be such a person. Neither do the other witnesses.
Joseph would need the luck of the irish to pull this scam off by attracting so many sociopaths from the same geographical location.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
why me wrote: If you are a human being, you will know that Oliver would need to be the worst sociopath in history to continue with a scam that was causing pain and death to so many people who believed in the scam. He would be the scum of the earth. But he does not seem to be such a person. Neither do the other witnesses.
Joseph would need the luck of the irish to pull this scam off by attracting so many sociopaths from the same geographical location.
OK, so Oliver Cowdery was the worst sociopath in history and the Book of Mormon is a 19th century fraud. How is this a problem for critics?
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die." - Captain Moroni - 'Address to the Inhabitants of Canada' 1775
Baker wrote: Do you believe that God spoke to Whitmer in 1838 and told him to separate himself from the saints? He died never have denied that either.
I have no idea what tricks the mind can play. If we only had Whitmer and Smith involved with the process, I would say that the Mormon church has a problem in general with such a small pool of witnesses. But we have many others involved. I think that david was in a confused state when he left the church. He needed to believe something just like the folks on this forum do to rationalize their current status in the church.
And with david we may have a Satanic imput to have him separate from the body of the church. What I see with david with is deathbed testimony as with the other witnesses is an attempt to make it right with god with their final testimonies before taking their last breath.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
beastie wrote:Yes, the Book of Mormon is a nineteenth century production. Believing otherwise requires a pre-existing belief based on something other than facts and evidence.
Said with such force but without the proof necessary to close the case.
A credible case for authenticity has never been made - the burden is not on the one who doubts ancient authorship. The book is not seriously considered outside of its religious context, and that's not just because everyone else is anti-Mormon.
"I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. ... Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I." - Joseph Smith, 1844