Is the Book of Mormon a 19th century production?

[Tator]

You mean like...the Bible? Or God? by the way, can we trust that all historical facts and evidence are accurate and complete, without bias, and/or will lead to the same hard and fast conclusions?

Regards,
MG

Yes, like God. No, like the Bible. I believe the Bible is an ancient document and I'm an atheist.

by the way, I'm just saying the same thing one of the respected apologists for the Book of Mormon has said, John Clark:

Those who choose not to believe it [i.e., the Book of Mormon] will never believe it; those who choose to believe it already do. ...
But I'm, I would never tell anybody to try to prove the Book of Mormon is true through physical evidence, just because of the way metaphysics and epistemology work—it's not possible. And so, you have to get the testimony some other way, and then the evidence will become very clear. If you're on the opposing side you can say we basically just, ah, brained washed ourselves (one or two words inaudible). You're free to think that—we're not doing anybody any harm.

You get the testimony first. Then you believe in its historicity.

If John Clark and I are wrong, it should be easy to find people who do not believe in the divine nature of the Book of Mormon but accept that it is an ancient text, like I do with the Bible.

The fact that it is necessary to have a spiritual testimony of the Book of Mormon before being able to believe it's an ancient document, or be able to even SEE the evidence of such, is the strongest evidence pointing to the fact that it's a nineteenth century work.

To illustrate my point, that the only reason anyone believes in the ancient origins of the Book of Mormon is due to a spiritual testimony, try this thought experiment.

Take a group of 100 people, all well educated in both the history of ancient America and nineteenth century America. Have them study the Book of Mormon, but give them no information about its origins (angels, disappearing plates, and hat tricks). After they’ve studied the text, ask them if the text is likely of ancient origin or of nineteenth century origins.

The answer is obvious. It’s obvious because not only is a spiritual testimony required to believe in the historicity of the Book of Mormon in the first place, but if one has any knowledge of ancient America, a great deal of apologia is required, as well. And that apologia has to be quite creative. The anachronisms in the text are immense, and are deeply enmeshed in the structure of the story. It’s not just horses we’re talking about here. It’s the description of a society and how that society works that is an anachronism.

If you deny people the spiritual testimony and deny them creative apologia, then every single one of those 100 will declare it of nineteenth century origins.

[_jon]

Which version of the Book of Mormon are we talking about here?

The original one that was divinely translated by the power of God,

or

the current edition which contains thousands and thousands of changes from the original?

[_beastie]

Aside from the painful anachronisms that are embedded within the entire story structure, not just peripheral details, there’s another reason to suspect the Book of Mormon was the “wonder tale” of an “immature (nineteenth century) mind”, to borrow a phrase from BH Roberts, rather than a compilation of historical records written by various authors over a span of centuries, with varied human experiences.

That is its cartoonish character.

Whether or not one believes in the divine claims the Bible makes, it is clear, aside from its provenance, that it was written over a span of centuries by various authors with varied human experiences. You can “hear” the complexity and ambiguity of human life. Sometimes the good guys ain’t that good. Sometimes the bad guys are clearly victims. It’s not a morality play that is black and white. It’s full of troubling gray.

The Book of Mormon, on the other hand, is a morality play of black and white. The good guys are really, super-duper good!! They’re like super-heroes! And the villains… well, Lex Luther has nothing on them. This is how a young, immature mind understands the world. This is how a mind that has not yet experienced decades of ambiguity and complexity understands the world.

Every now and then the author gets something right. In particular, the author understands how greed and pride damage societies and the weakest members therein. The Book of Mormon consistently condemns that. And, not coincidentally in my mind, that is the one thing that young Joseph had already experienced in his life.

[_Buffalo]

This is a problem for the critics. If Oliver was in on the scam, he would need to be the most awful sociopath in history. True, he never killed anyone without emotion but to have wife and child believe in a scam even after he left the scam, would be hellish. And then come back to the scam with his testimony on his deathbed and with his speech to the saints when he came back...would be worst than hellish.

If you could manage to break the law of chastity as a Mormon and not feel guilty, Oliver could manage the same with his little problem.

[_Buffalo]

Wow. Just wow.

Here is the deal: put yourself in the place of the witnesses who left the church and yet, kept their mouth shut about a scam. Or put yourself in their place as actually seeing what they saw and yet, having a problem with Joseph. How to rationalize your decision to leave the fold and yet, not deny what you saw or felt with your hands. Good luck.

If they were in on the scam, why would they want to incriminate themselves? And if they were duped and never discovered it, why would they deny their initial experience?

[_mentalgymnast]

Themis mentioned that I seem to be hung up on the actual translation procedure, including the time line in regards to how long and when events happened. Well, yes, I suppose that I am. The peripheral issues that seem to place the Book of Mormon squarely in the category of being a 19th century production conceived through the mind of Joseph Smith&Co. play second fiddle. Reason being, the Book of Mormon can both be read as a 19th century product in some respects and an ancient document/artifact in other respects. You don't have to go through many clicks of the mouse to see that this is so.

I think that we can agree that Oliver Cowdery is a key player in the translation of the Book of Mormon. He was directly in cahoots with Joseph Smith in whatever occurred during the translation and publication period. It is useful to look at examples of the "nuts and bolts" of the translation procedure in order to get a snapshot of what was going on. Themis and others would like to expand the timeline for the production of the Book of Mormon text beyond the 90 day period and also take Joseph's head out of the hat, other than to have him insert it at times to put on a show for those who were purportedly being duped.

To put the actual translation period within a small window of time vs. an expanded window of time and to put Joseph's head in a hat reading words on a seerstone sets the stage for asking the simple question, "How in the heck did he do it?" That question then takes us into the realms of super memory capabilities, hole in the hat tricks...or translating through the gift and power of God in order to complete what would have been almost a super human task.

So here is one example of a nuts and bolts mini-snapshot of the translation process:

In explaining what he observes in the two manuscripts (original and printer's...O and P) for 1 Nephi 19:16, Skousen writes::

It appears that Oliver Cowdery first wrote "the prophets Zenos" in the original manuscript and then did not correct it until months later when he was copying from O [the original manuscript] into P [the printer's manuscript]. The plural s was probably the result of Oliver misinterpreting Joseph Smith's dictation of "the words of the prophet Zenos". Oliver was probably expecting "the words of the prophets", which occurs 14 times in the Book of Mormon. It would have been very difficult to hear the difference between "the prophet Zenos" and "the prophets Zenos", so it would have been hard to catch this error when Oliver read back the text to Joseph. This kind of s addition sometimes occurs when the following word begins with a sibilant sound (such as /s/, /z/, or /š/). Oliver made this same kind of mistake in Alma 41:14 when he took down Joseph's dictation for "my son see" as "my sons see" (see the discussion under Alma 41:14).

When Oliver Cowdery copied the text for this passage from O into P, he initially wrote "the Prophets Zenos" in the printer's manuscript. Realizing that the word prophet should be in the singular, he erased the s in the printer's manuscript, then apparently turned to correct O so that it would agree with P. But for some reason he also crossed out Zenos, as if he were correcting O to read "according to the words of the prophets", a distinct possibility but wrong in this case. Instead of rewriting the name Zenos, Oliver tried to erase the crossout lines, but only at the beginning of the name Zenos. He realized he had correctly copied the name into P, so it was unnecessary to fully correct O. In the end, he crossed out the plural s of prophets in O with a heavier ink flow. (He probably dipped his pen after having tried to erase the crossing out of Zenos.)

If Oliver Cowdery had crossed out Zenos originally when Joseph Smith was dictating the manuscript, he probably wouldn't have accidentally written it a second time when producing the printer's manuscript. It seems very likely that Joseph Smith read off the name Zenos; adding Zenos by accident seems highly unlikely since there is no nearby occurrence of this (or any other) prophet's name. (The name Zenos last occurred in verse 12, on the previous manuscript page of O.) Moreover, nowhere else in either manuscript does Oliver Cowdery (or any other scribe) accidentally add a name after writing the word prophet.1

Now, if the text of the Book of Mormon was cobbled together over a period of time previous to this translation period "mini-snapshot", wouldn't 1 Nephi 19:16 already have been written beforehand (weeks, months, years) and already be in finished compositional form before this particular sit down, back and forth, exercise between Joseph and Oliver? This snapshot can be multiplied by the hundreds as we move through the textual material in the Book of Mormon.

In other words's, to say that the Book of Mormon was written over a long period of time and that later (during the time just before publication) hat tricks were performed to fool the gullible, and that Joseph didn't actually sit down with scribes and go through "quick fire" translation processes of some kind are rather lame conclusions (along with others) to lay on the table. The evidence is that the translation was a complex, give and take exercise that occurred between Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. For them to be involved in a hoax the question needs to be asked, "Why does the evidence show that there was indeed a minute, time consuming, and detailed translation process going on between the two dupesters?"

This extract that I've posted from Skousen's Critical Edition of the Book of Mormon doesn't seem to lend itself towards some type of fraudulent conspiracy between Joseph and Oliver concocted over a long period of time.

At least that's the way I see it.

Regards,
MG

[_Buffalo]

That question then takes us into the realms of super memory capabilities, hole in the hat tricks...or translating through the gift and power of God in order to complete what would have been almost a super human task.

Super memory capabilities? All he'd need to do is remember a general outline for the day. Much of the Book of Mormon reads as a stream of consciousness composition. It doesn't read like someone was chosing their words carefully as they painstakingly engraved them on metal plates with limited space. Instead it's "editing as you go." Examples (compiled by Richard Packham):

THE FIRST BOOK OF NEPHI [header]
... This is according to the account of Nephi; or in other words, I, Nephi, wrote this record.

1 Nephi 8:2
2 And it came to pass that while my father tarried in the wilderness he spake unto us, saying: Behold, I have dreamed a dream; or, in other words, I have seen a vision.

1 Nephi 10:4
4 Yea, even six hundred years from the time that my father left Jerusalem, a prophet would the Lord God raise up among the Jews--even a Messiah, or, in other words, a Savior of the world.

1 Nephi 10:14
14 And after the house of Israel should be scattered they should be gathered together again; or, in fine, after the Gentiles had received the fulness of the Gospel, the natural branches of the olive-tree, or the remnants of the house of Israel, should be grafted in, or come to the knowledge of the true Messiah, their Lord and their Redeemer.

1 Nephi 11:25
25 And it came to pass that I beheld that the rod of iron, which my father had seen, was the word of God, which led to the fountain of living waters, or to the tree of life; which waters are a representation of the love of God; and I also beheld that the tree of life was a representation of the love of God.

1 Nephi 14:23
23 Wherefore, the things which he shall write are just and true; and behold they are written in the book which thou beheld proceeding out of the mouth of the Jew; and at the time they proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew, or, at the time the book proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew, the things which were written were plain and pure, and most precious and easy to the understanding of all men.

1 Nephi 15:20
20 And I did rehearse unto them the words of Isaiah, who spake concerning the restoration of the Jews, or of the house of Israel; and after they were restored they should no more be confounded, neither should they be scattered again....

1 Nephi 17:41
41 And he did straiten them in the wilderness with his rod; for they hardened their hearts, even as ye have; and the Lord straitened them because of their iniquity. He sent fiery flying serpents among them; and after they were bitten he prepared a way that they might be healed; and the labor which they had to perform was to look; and because of the simpleness of the way, or the easiness of it, there were many who perished.

1 Nephi 19:4
4 Wherefore, I, Nephi, did make a record upon the other plates, which gives an account,or which gives a greater account of the wars and contentions and destructions of my people. And this have I done, and commanded my people what they should do after I was gone; and that these plates should be handed down from one generation to another,or from one prophet to another, until further commandments of the Lord.

1 Nephi 19:7
7 For the things which some men esteem to be of great worth, both to the body and soul, others set at naught and trample under their feet. Yea, even the very God of Israel do men trample under their feet; I say, trample under their feet but I would speak in other words--they set him at naught, and hearken not to the voice of his counsels.

1 Nephi 20:1 (compare Isaiah 48:1)
1 HEARKEN and hear this, O house of Jacob, who are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, or out of the waters of baptism, who swear by the name of the Lord, and make mention of the God of Israel, yet they swear not in truth nor in righteousness.

Mosiah 4:26
26 And now, for the sake of these things which I have spoken unto you--that is, for the sake of retaining a remission of your sins from day to day, that ye may walk guiltless before God--I would that ye should impart of your substance to the poor,...

Mosiah 5:2
2 And they all cried with one voice, saying: Yea, we believe all the words which thou hast spoken unto us; and also, we know of their surety and truth, because of the Spirit of the Lord Omnipotent, which has wrought a mighty change in us, or in our hearts, that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually.

Mosiah 7:1
1 AND now, it came to pass that after king Mosiah had had continual peace for the space of three years, he was desirous to know concerning the people who went up to dwell in the land of Lehi-Nephi, or in the city of Lehi-Nephi; ...

Mosiah 7:8
8 And it came to pass when they had been in prison two days they were again brought before the king, and their bands were loosed; and they stood before the king, and were permitted, or rather commanded, that they should answer the questions which he should ask them.

Mosiah 7:15
15 For behold, we are in bondage to the Lamanites, and are taxed with a tax which is grievous to be borne. And now, behold, our brethren will deliver us out of our bondage, or out of the hands of the Lamanites, and we will be their slaves; ...

Mosiah 7:21
21 And ye all are witnesses this day, that Zeniff, who was made king over this people, he being over-zealous to inherit the land of his fathers, therefore being deceived by the cunning and craftiness of king Laman, who having entered into a treaty with king Zeniff, and having yielded up into his hands the possessions of a part of the land, or even the city of Lehi-Nephi, and the city of Shilom; and the land round about--

Mosiah 7:22
22 And all this he did, for the sole purpose of bringing this people into subjection or into bondage. ...

Mosiah 7:27
27 And because he said unto them that Christ was the God, the Father of all things, and said that he should take upon him the image of man, and it should be the image after which man was created in the beginning; or in other words, he said that man was created after the image of God, and that God should come down among the children of men, and take upon him flesh and blood, and go forth upon the face of the earth--

Mosiah 8:17
17 But a seer can know of things which are past, and also of things which are to come, and by them shall all things be revealed, or, rather, shall secret things be made manifest, and hidden things shall come to light, and things which are not known shall be made known by them, and also things shall be made known by them which otherwise could not be known.

Mosiah 9:1
1 I, Zeniff, having been taught in all the language of the Nephites, and having had a knowledge of the land of Nephi, or of the land of our fathers' first inheritance, ...

Mosiah 11:18
18 And it came to pass that king Noah sent his armies against them, and they were driven back, or they drove them back for a time; therefore, they returned rejoicing in their spoil.

Mosiah 15:11
11 Behold I say unto you, that whosoever has heard the words of the prophets, yea, all the holy prophets who have prophesied concerning the coming of the Lord--I say unto you, that all those who have hearkened unto their words, and believed that the Lord would redeem his people, and have looked forward to that day for a remission of their sins, I say unto you, that these are his seed, or they are the heirs of the kingdom of God.

Mosiah 15:22
22 And now, the resurrection of all the prophets, and all those that have believed in their words, or all those that have kept the commandments of God, shall come forth in the first resurrection; therefore, they are the first resurrection.

Mosiah 15:24
24 And these are those who have part in the first resurrection; and these are they that have died before Christ came, in their ignorance, not having salvation declared unto them. And thus the Lord bringeth about the restoration of these; and they have a part in the first resurrection, or have eternal life, being redeemed by the Lord.

Mosiah 18:17
17 And they were called the church of God, or the church of Christ, from that time forward. ...

Mosiah 22:6
6 Behold the back pass, through the back wall, on the back side of the city. The Lamanites, or the guards of the Lamanites, by night are drunken; ...

Mosiah 26:39
39 And they did admonish their brethren; and they were also admonished, every one by the word of God, according to his sins, or to the sins which he had committed, ...

Alma 1:15
15 And it came to pass that they took him; and his name was Nehor; and they carried him upon the top of the hill Manti, and there he was caused, or rather did acknowledge, between the heavens and the earth, that what he had taught to the people was contrary to the word of God; and there he suffered an ignominious death.

Alma 2:34
34 And thus he cleared the ground, or rather the bank, which was on the west of the river Sidon,....

Alma 4:19
19 And this he did that he himself might go forth among his people, or among the people of Nephi, that he might preach the word of God unto them, ...

Alma 5:25
25 I say unto you, Nay; except ye make our Creator a liar from the beginning, or suppose that he is a liar from the beginning, ...

Alma 9:1
1 AND again, I, Alma, having been commanded of God that I should take Amulek and go forth and preach again unto this people, or the people who were in the city of Ammonihah,...

Alma 10:14
14 Now it was those men who sought to destroy them, who were lawyers, who were hired or appointed by the people to administer the law at their times of trials, or at the trials of the crimes of the people before the judges.

Alma 10:16
16 And it came to pass that they began to question Amulek, that thereby they might make him cross his words, or contradict the words which he should speak.

Alma 10:19
19 Yea, well did Mosiah say, who was our last king, when he was about to deliver up the kingdom, having no one to confer it upon, causing that this people should be governed by their own voices--yea, well did he say that if the time should come that the voice of this people should choose iniquity, that is, if the time should come that this people should fall into transgression, they would be ripe for destruction.

Alma 11:1
1 NOW it was in the law of Mosiah that every man who was a judge of the law, or those who were appointed to be judges, should receive wages according to the time which they labored to judge those who were brought before them to be judged.

Alma 11:45
45 Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body, that is from death,...

Alma 11:46
46 Now, when Amulek had finished these words the people began again to be astonished, and also Zeezrom began to tremble. And thus ended the words of Amulek, or this is all that I have written...

Alma 12:31
31 Wherefore, he gave commandments unto men, they having first transgressed the first commandments as to things which were temporal, and becoming as Gods, knowing good from evil, placing themselves in a state to act, or being placed in a state to act according to their wills and pleasures, whether to do evil or to do good--

Alma 13:7
7 This high priesthood being after the order of his Son, which order was from the foundation of the world; or in other words, being without beginning of days or end of years, being prepared from eternity to all eternity, according to his foreknowledge of all things--

Alma 13:10
10 Now, as I said concerning the holy order, or this high priesthood, there were many who were ordained and became high priests of God; ...

Alma 13:16
16 Now these ordinances were given after this manner, that thereby the people might look forward on the Son of God, it being a type of his order, or it being his order, and this that they might look forward to him for a remission of their sins, that they might enter into the rest of the Lord.

Alma 14:8
8 And they brought their wives and children together, and whosoever believed or had been taught to believe in the word of God...

Alma 14:11
11 But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them,...

Alma 16:16
16 And there was no inequality among them; the Lord did pour out his Spirit on all the face of the land to prepare the minds of the children of men, or to prepare their hearts to receive the word which should be taught among them at the time of his coming--

Alma 17:14
14 ... and their hearts were set upon riches, or upon gold and silver, and precious stones;...

Alma 17:18
18 Now Ammon being the chief among them, or rather he did administer unto them, and he departed from them, after having blessed them according to their several stations, having imparted the word of God unto them, or administered unto them before his departure; and thus they took their several journeys throughout the land.

Alma 17:29
29 Now they wept because of the fear of being slain. Now when Ammon saw this his heart was swollen within him with joy; for, said he, I will show forth my power unto these my fellow-servants, or the power which is in me, ..

Alma 21:19
19 And king Lamoni would not suffer that Ammon should serve him, or be his servant.

Alma 21:20
20 But he caused that there should be synagogues built in the land of Ishmael; and he caused that his people, or the people who were under his reign, should assemble themselves together.

Alma 22:19
19 ... she was angry with them, and commanded that her servants, or the servants of the king, should take them and slay them.

Alma 23:6
6 And as sure as the Lord liveth, so sure as many as believed, or as many as were brought to the knowledge of the truth, through the preaching of Ammon and his brethren, according to the spirit of revelation and of prophecy, and the power of God working miracles in them--yea, I say unto you, as the Lord liveth, as many of the Lamanites as believed in their preaching, and were converted unto the Lord, never did fall away.

Alma 24:15
15 Oh, how merciful is our God! And now behold, since it has been as much as we could do to get our stains taken away from us, and our swords are made bright, let us hide them away that they may be kept bright, as a testimony to our God at the last day, or at the day that we shall be brought to stand before him to be judged, that we have not stained our swords in the blood of our brethren since he imparted his word unto us and has made us clean thereby.

Alma 30:9
9 Now if a man desired to serve God, it was his privilege; or rather, if he believed in God it was his privilege to serve him; but if he did not believe in him there was no law to punish him.

Alma 32:16
16 Therefore, blessed are they who humble themselves without being compelled to be humble; or rather, in other words, blessed is he that believeth in the word of God, and is baptized without stubbornness of heart, yea, without being brought to know the word, or even compelled to know, before they will believe.

Alma 33:1
1 NOW after Alma had spoken these words, they sent forth unto him desiring to know whether they should believe in one God, that they might obtain this fruit of which he had spoken, or how they should plant the seed, or the word of which he had spoken, which he said must be planted in their hearts; or in what manner they should begin to exercise their faith.

Alma 34:13
13 Therefore, it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice, and then shall there be, or it is expedient there should be, a stop to the shedding of blood; then shall the law of Moses be fulfilled; yea, it shall be all fulfilled, every jot and tittle, and none shall have passed away.

Alma 35:15
15 Now Alma, being grieved for the iniquity of his people, yea for the wars, and the bloodsheds, and the contentions which were among them; and having been to declare the word, or sent to declare the word, among all the people in every city; ...

Alma 36:14
14 Yea, and I had murdered many of his children, or rather led them away unto destruction; yea, and in fine so great had been my iniquities, that the very thought of coming into the presence of my God did rack my soul with inexpressible horror.

Alma 37:9
9 Yea, I say unto you, were it not for these things that these records do contain, which are on these plates, Ammon and his brethren could not have convinced so many thousands of the Lamanites of the incorrect tradition of their fathers; yea, these records and their words brought them unto repentance; that is, they brought them to the knowledge of the Lord their God, and to rejoice in Jesus Christ their Redeemer.

Alma 37:21
21 And now, I will speak unto you concerning those twenty-four plates, that ye keep them, that the mysteries and the works of darkness, and their secret works, or the secret works of those people who have been destroyed, may be made manifest unto this people; yea, all their murders, and robbings, and their plunderings, and all their wickedness and abominations, may be made manifest unto this people; yea, and that ye preserve these interpreters.

Alma 37:42
42 Therefore, they tarried in the wilderness, or did not travel a direct course, and were afflicted with hunger and thirst, because of their transgressions.

Alma 39:16
16 And now, my son, this was the ministry unto which ye were called, to declare these glad tidings unto this people, to prepare their minds; or rather that salvation might come unto them, that they may prepare the minds of their children to hear the word at the time of his coming.

Alma 40:2
2 Behold, I say unto you, that there is no resurrection--or, I would say, in other words, that this mortal does not put on immortality, this corruption does not put on incorruption--until after the coming of Christ.

Alma 40:19
19 Now, whether the souls and the bodies of those of whom has been spoken shall all be reunited at once, the wicked as well as the righteous, I do not say; let it suffice, that I say that they all come forth; or in other words, their resurrection cometh to pass before the resurrection of those who die after the resurrection of Christ.

Alma 41:11
11 And now, my son, all men that are in a state of nature, or I would say, in a carnal state, are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity;

Alma 41:12
12 And now behold, is the meaning of the word restoration to take a thing of a natural state and place it in an unnatural state, or to place it in a state opposite to its nature?

Alma 42:9
9 Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the fall had brought upon all mankind a spiritual death as well as a temporal, that is, they were cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that mankind should be reclaimed from this spiritual death.

Alma 43:16
16 Now, the leader of the Nephites, or the man who had been appointed to be the chief captain over the Nephites--now the chief captain took the command of all the armies of the Nephites--and his name was Moroni;

Alma 43:19
19 And when the armies of the Lamanites saw that the people of Nephi, or that Moroni, had prepared his people with breastplates and with arm-shields, yea, and also shields to defend their heads, and also they were dressed with thick clothing--

Alma 43:38
38 While on the other hand, there was now and then a man fell among the Nephites, by their swords and the loss of blood, they being shielded from the more vital parts of the body, or the more vital parts of the body being shielded from the strokes of the Lamanites, by their breastplates, and their armshields, and their head-plates; ...

Alma 43:44
44 And they were inspired by the Zoramites and the Amalekites, who were their chief captains and leaders, and by Zerahemnah, who was their chief captain, or their chief leader and commander; ...

Alma 44:23
23 And the armies of the Nephites, or of Moroni, returned and came to their houses and their lands.

Alma 46:21
21 And it came to pass that when Moroni had proclaimed these words, behold, the people came running together with their armor girded about their loins, rending their garments in token, or as a covenant, that they would not forsake the Lord their God; or, in other words, if they should transgress the commandments of God, or fall into transgression, and be ashamed to take upon them the name of Christ, the Lord should rend them even as they had rent their garments.

Alma 47:2
2 ... And it came to pass that they would not, or the more part of them would not, obey the commandments of the king.

Alma 48:15
15 And this was their faith, that by so doing God would prosper them in the land, or in other words, if they were faithful in keeping the commandments of God that he would prosper them in the land; yea, warn them to flee, or to prepare for war, according to their danger;

Alma 49:9
9 And it came to pass that the Lamanites, or the Amalickiahites, were exceedingly astonished at their manner of preparation for war.

Alma 49:13
13 For they knew not that Moroni had fortified, or had built forts of security, for every city in all the land round about;...

Alma 50:1
1 AND now it came to pass that Moroni did not stop making preparations for war, or to defend his people against the Lamanites;...

Alma 50:14
14 And they also began a foundation for a city between the city of Moroni and the city of Aaron, joining the borders of Aaron and Moroni; and they called the name of the city, or the land, Nephihah.

Alma 50:32
32 Now behold, the people who were in the land Bountiful, or rather Moroni, feared that they would hearken to the words of Morianton ...

Alma 51:6
6 And those who were desirous that Pahoran should remain chief judge over the land took upon them the name of freemen; and thus was the division among them, for the freemen had sworn or covenanted...

Alma 53:3
3 And it came to pass that after the Lamanites had finished burying their dead and also the dead of the Nephites, they were marched back into the land Bountiful; and Teancum, by the orders of Moroni, caused that they should commence laboring in digging a ditch round about the land, or the city, Bountiful.

Alma 53:10
10 And now behold, I have somewhat to say concerning the people of Ammon, who, in the beginning, were Lamanites; but by Ammon and his brethren, or rather by the power and word of God, they had been converted unto the Lord;...

Alma 54:3
3 Now the Lamanites had taken many women and children, and there was not a woman nor a child among all the prisoners of Moroni, or the prisoners whom Moroni had taken;...

Alma 54:5
5 Behold, Ammoron, I have written unto you somewhat concerning this war which ye have waged against my people, or rather which thy brother hath waged against them, and which ye are still determined to carry on after his death.

Alma 54:6
6 Behold, I would tell you somewhat concerning the justice of God, and the sword of his almighty wrath, which doth hang over you except ye repent and withdraw your armies into your own lands, or the land of your possessions, which is the land of Nephi.

Alma 56:14
14 The land of Manti, or the city of Manti, and the city of Zeezrom, and the city of Cumeni, and the city of Antiparah.

Alma 57:8
8 And now behold, I will show unto you that we soon accomplished our desire; yea, with our strong force, or with a part of our strong force, we did surround, by night, the city Cumeni,...

Alma 58:9
9 And now the cause of these our embarrassments, or the cause why they did not send more strength unto us, we knew not;...

Alma 58:20
20 And it came to pass that when the Lamanites had passed by, or when the army had passed by,...

Alma 59:3
3 And it came to pass that he immediately sent an epistle to Pahoran, desiring that he should cause men to be gathered together to strengthen Helaman, or the armies of Helaman,...

Alma 61:8
8 They have got possession of the land, or the city, of Zarahemla;...

Alma 63:15
15 And also in this same year they came down with a numerous army to war against the people of Moronihah, or against the army of Moronihah,...

Helaman 10:17
17 And it came to pass that thus he did go forth in the Spirit, from multitude to multitude, declaring the word of God, even until he had declared it unto them all, or sent it forth among all the people.

Helaman 14:21
21 Yea, at the time that he shall yield up the ghost there shall be thunderings and lightnings for the space of many hours, and the earth shall shake and tremble; and the rocks which are upon the face of this earth, which are both above the earth and beneath, which ye know at this time are solid, or the more part of it is one solid mass, shall be broken up;

3 Nephi 3:6-7
6 Therefore I write unto you, desiring that ye would yield up unto this my people, your cities, your lands, and your possessions, rather than that they should visit you with the sword and that destruction should come upon you.
7 Or in other words, yield yourselves up unto us, and unite with us and become acquainted with our secret works, and become our brethren that ye may be like unto us--not our slaves, but our brethren and partners of all our substance.

3 Nephi 6:20
20 And there began to be men inspired from heaven and sent forth, standing among the people in all the land, preaching and testifying boldly of the sins and iniquities of the people, and testifying unto them concerning the redemption which the Lord would make for his people, or in other words, the resurrection of Christ; and they did testify boldly of his death and sufferings.

3 Nephi 12:23
23 Therefore, if ye shall come unto me, or shall desire to come unto me, and rememberest that thy brother hath aught against thee--

3 Nephi 14
14 ...And he caused that armies, both of the Nephites and of the Lamanites, or of all them who were numbered among the Nephites, should be placed as guards round about to watch them,

3 Nephi 16:4
4 ... the remnant of their seed, who shall be scattered forth upon the face of the earth because of their unbelief, may be brought in, or may be brought to a knowledge of me, their Redeemer.

Mormon 2:1
1 AND it came to pass in that same year there began to be a war again between the Nephites and the Lamanites. And notwithstanding I being young, was large in stature; therefore the people of Nephi appointed me that I should be their leader, or the leader of their armies.

Moroni 8:22
22 ... For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing--

Moroni 8:27
27 Behold, my son, I will write unto you again if I go not out soon against the Lamanites. Behold, the pride of this nation, or the people of the Nephites, hath proven their destruction except they should repent.

You find the same things in Joseph Smith's other writings:

D&C 7:5 (compare Book of Commandments 6:3)
5 I say unto thee, Peter, this was a good desire; but my beloved has desired that he might do more, or a greater work yet among men than what he has before done. [In the original BoC version, this duplication did not occur.]

D&C 10:10
10 And, behold, Satan hath put it into their hearts to alter the words which you have caused to be written, or which you have translated, which have gone out of your hands.

D&C 10:17
17 And if God giveth him power again, or if he translates again, or, in other words, if he bringeth forth the same words, behold, we have the same with us, and we have altered them;

D&C 10:37
37 But as you cannot always judge the righteous, or as you cannot always tell the wicked from the righteous,...

D&C 11:10
10 Behold, thou hast a gift, or thou shalt have a gift if thou wilt desire of me in faith, with an honest heart, believing in the power of Jesus Christ, or in my power which speaketh unto thee;

D&C 11:14
14 And then shall ye know, or by this shall you know, all things whatsoever you desire of me, which are pertaining unto things of righteousness, in faith believing in me that you shall receive.

D&C 42:37
37 And it shall come to pass, that he that sinneth and repenteth not shall be cast out of the church, and shall not receive again that which he has consecrated unto the poor and the needy of my church, or in other words, unto me--

D&C 42:69
69 Lift up your hearts and rejoice, for unto you the kingdom, or in other words, the keys of the church have been given. Even so. Amen.

D&C 42:74
74 Behold, verily I say unto you, that whatever persons among you, having put away their companions for the cause of fornication, or in other words, if they shall testify before you in all lowliness of heart that this is the case, ye shall not cast them out from among you;

D&C 48:5
5 The place is not yet to be revealed; but after your brethren come from the east there are to be certain men appointed, and to them it shall be given to know the place, or to them it shall be revealed.

D&C 58:20
20 Let no man think he is ruler; but let God rule him that judgeth, according to the counsel of his own will, or, in other words, him that counseleth or sitteth upon the judgment seat.

D&C 59:13
13 And on this day thou shalt do none other thing, only let thy food be prepared with singleness of heart that thy fasting may be perfect, or, in other words, that thy joy may be full.

D&C 59:14
14 Verily, this is fasting and prayer, or in other words, rejoicing and prayer.

D&C 61:23
23 And now, concerning my servants, Sidney Rigdon, Joseph Smith, Jun., and Oliver Cowdery, let them come not again upon the waters, save it be upon the canal, while journeying unto their homes; or in other words they shall not come upon the waters to journey, save upon the canal.

D&C 63:42
42 Let my servant Newel K. Whitney retain his store, or in other words, the store, yet for a little season.

D&C 64:27
27 Behold, it is said in my laws, or forbidden, to get in debt to thine enemies;

D&C 66:4
4 And now, verily, I, the Lord, will show unto you what I will concerning you, or what is my will concerning you.

D&C 76:88
88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation.

D&C 78:8-9
8 And now, verily thus saith the Lord, it is expedient that all things be done unto my glory, by you who are joined together in this order;
9 Or, in other words, let my servant Newel K. Whitney and my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and my servant Sidney Rigdon sit in council with the saints which are in Zion;

D&C 78:11
11 Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, to prepare and organize yourselves by a bond or everlasting covenant that cannot be broken.

D&C 82:8-9
8 And again, I say unto you, I give unto you a new commandment, that you may understand my will concerning you;
9 Or, in other words, I give unto you directions how you may act before me, that it may turn to you for your salvation.

D&C 82:17
17 And you are to be equal, or in other words, you are to have equal claims on the properties, for the benefit of managing the concerns of your stewardships, every man according to his wants and his needs, inasmuch as his wants are just--

D&C 83:5
5 And after that, they have claim upon the church, or in other words upon the Lord's storehouse, if their parents have not wherewith to give them inheritances.

D&C 88:127
127 And again, the order of the house prepared for the presidency of the school of the prophets, established for their instruction in all things that are expedient for them, even for all the officers of the church, or in other words, those who are called to the ministry in the church, beginning at the high priests, even down to the deacons--

D&C 93:36
36 The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth.

D&C 93:45
45 Verily, I say unto my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., or in other words, I will call you friends, for you are my friends, and ye shall have an inheritance with me--

D&C 95:17
17 And let the higher part of the inner court be dedicated unto me for the school of mine apostles, saith Son Ahman; or, in other words, Alphus; or, in other words, Omegus; even Jesus Christ your Lord. Amen.

D&C 101:12
12 And in that day all who are found upon the watch-tower, or in other words, all mine Israel, shall be saved.

D&C 101:31
31 And when he dies he shall not sleep, that is to say in the earth, but shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye, and shall be caught up, and his rest shall be glorious.

D&C 104:5
5 For I, the Lord, have decreed in my heart, that inasmuch as any man belonging to the order shall be found a transgressor, or, in other words, shall break the covenant with which ye are bound, he shall be cursed in his life, and shall be trodden down by whom I will;

D&C 104:68-69
68 And all moneys that you receive in your stewardships, by improving upon the properties which I have appointed unto you, ... shall be cast into the treasury as fast as you receive moneys, by hundreds, or by fifties, or by twenties, or by tens, or by fives.
69 Or in other words, if any man among you obtain five dollars let him cast them into the treasury; or if he obtain ten, or twenty, or fifty, or an hundred, let him do likewise;

D&C 107:27
27 And every decision made by either of these quorums must be by the unanimous voice of the same; that is, every member in each quorum must be agreed to its decisions, in order to make their decisions of the same power or validity one with the other--

D&C 107:66
65 Wherefore, it must needs be that one be appointed of the High Priesthood to preside over the priesthood, and he shall be called President of the High Priesthood of the Church;
66 Or, in other words, the Presiding High Priest over the High Priesthood of the Church.

D&C 107:71
71 Nevertheless, a high priest, that is, after the order of Melchizedek, may be set apart unto the ministering of temporal things, having a knowledge of them by the Spirit of truth;

D&C 128:8
8 Now, the nature of this ordinance consists in the power of the priesthood, by the revelation of Jesus Christ, wherein it is granted that whatsoever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Or, in other words, taking a different view of the translation, whatsoever you record on earth shall be recorded in heaven, and whatsoever you do not record on earth shall not be recorded in heaven;

Abraham 2:11
11 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse them that curse thee; and in thee (that is, in thy Priesthood) and in thy seed (that is, thy Priesthood), for I give unto thee a promise that this right shall continue in thee, and in thy seed after thee (that is to say, the literal seed, or the seed of the body) shall all the families of the earth be blessed, even with the blessings of the Gospel, which are the blessings of salvation, even of life eternal.

Abraham 3:8
8 And where these two facts exist, there shall be another fact above them, that is, there shall be another planet whose reckoning of time shall be longer still;....

Abraham 4:1
1 AND then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth.

Abraham 5:7
7 And the Gods formed man from the dust of the ground, and took his spirit (that is, the man's spirit), and put it into him; and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

Facsimile No. 2 from the Book of Abraham
EXPLANATION
Fig. 5. Is called in Egyptian Enish-go-on-dosh; this is one of the governing planets also, and is said by the Egyptians to be the Sun, and to borrow its light from Kolob through the medium of Kae-e-vanrash, which is the grand Key, or, in other words, the governing power, which governs fifteen other fixed planets or stars, as also Floeese or the Moon, the Earth and the Sun in their annual revolutions.

JST Genesis 14:36
36 And this Melchizedek, having thus established righteousness, was called the king of heaven by his people, or, in other words, the King of peace.

JST Matthew 27:35
35 And when they were come unto a place called Golgotha, (that is to say, a place of burial,)...

JST Mark 9:3
3 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses, or in other words, John the Baptist and Moses; and they were talking with Jesus.

JST Luke 6:29
29 And unto him who smiteth thee on the cheek, offer also the other; or, in other words, it is better to offer the other, than to revile again.

JST Luke 14:26
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, or husband, yea and his own life also; or in other words, is afraid to lay down his life for my sake, he cannot be my disciple.

JST Luke 17:37
37 And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is gathered; or, in other words, whithersoever the saints are gathered; thither will the eagles be gathered together; or, thither will the remainder be gathered together.

JST Luke 23:32
32 This he spake, signifying the scattering of Israel, and the desolation of the heathen, or in other words, the Gentiles.

[_DarkHelmet]

That question then takes us into the realms of super memory capabilities, hole in the hat tricks...or translating through the gift and power of God in order to complete what would have been almost a super human task.

Super memory capabilities? All he'd need to do is remember a general outline for the day. Much of the Book of Mormon reads as a stream of consciousness composition. It doesn't read like someone was chosing their words carefully as they painstakingly engraved them on metal plates with limited space. Instead it's "editing as you go." Examples (compiled by Richard Packham):

THE FIRST BOOK OF NEPHI [header]
... This is according to the account of Nephi; or in other words, I, Nephi, wrote this record.

1 Nephi 8:2
2 And it came to pass that while my father tarried in the wilderness he spake unto us, saying: Behold, I have dreamed a dream; or, in other words, I have seen a vision.

1 Nephi 10:4
4 Yea, even six hundred years from the time that my father left Jerusalem, a prophet would the Lord God raise up among the Jews--even a Messiah, or, in other words, a Savior of the world.

1 Nephi 10:14
14 And after the house of Israel should be scattered they should be gathered together again; or, in fine, after the Gentiles had received the fulness of the Gospel, the natural branches of the olive-tree, or the remnants of the house of Israel, should be grafted in, or come to the knowledge of the true Messiah, their Lord and their Redeemer.

1 Nephi 11:25
25 And it came to pass that I beheld that the rod of iron, which my father had seen, was the word of God, which led to the fountain of living waters, or to the tree of life; which waters are a representation of the love of God; and I also beheld that the tree of life was a representation of the love of God.

1 Nephi 14:23
23 Wherefore, the things which he shall write are just and true; and behold they are written in the book which thou beheld proceeding out of the mouth of the Jew; and at the time they proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew, or, at the time the book proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew, the things which were written were plain and pure, and most precious and easy to the understanding of all men.

If I was an apologist I would say the reason for all these mid sentence corrections or clarifications was because Moroni didn't have an eraser. So after proofreading his sentences and realizing he made a mistake or it needed more clarification, instead of erasing it, he had to use "or rather" to correct himself. Of course, with the scarcity of plates he could have said screw it, it's good enough, but he was a perfectionist, and risked running out of plate space to get the meaning exactly right. You could also argue that he should have figured out exactly what he wanted to say before committing it to the plates, but he was running from dark skinned savage Lamanites and didn't have time to think before writing. In fact, I would think that much of the time he was actually engraving the plates while running from Lamanites and dodging spears, he was that good, and that would explain how he ended up so far away from Mesoamerica when he finally finished writing.

[_Buffalo]

If I was an apologist I would say the reason for all these mid sentence corrections or clarifications was because Moroni didn't have an eraser. So after proofreading his sentences and realizing he made a mistake or it needed more clarification, instead of erasing it, he had to use "or rather" to correct himself. Of course, with the scarcity of plates he could have said screw it, it's good enough, but he was a perfectionist, and risked running out of plate space to get the meaning exactly right. You could also argue that he should have figured out exactly what he wanted to say before committing it to the plates, but he was running from dark skinned savage Lamanites and didn't have time to think before writing. In fact, I would think that much of the time he was actually engraving the plates while running from Lamanites and dodging spears, he was that good, and that would explain how he ended up so far away from Mesoamerica when he finally finished writing.

I'd respond that the Book of Mormon records were carefully compiled by Mormon - an editor, who had to painstakingly etch each word on metal. That doesn't sound plausible. I'd also add the suspiciously similar structures in Joseph Smith's D&C revelations.

[_mentalgymnast]

Themis mentioned that I seem to be hung up on the actual translation procedure, including the time line in regards to how long and when events happened. Well, yes, I suppose that I am. The peripheral issues that seem to place the Book of Mormon squarely in the category of being a 19th century production conceived through the mind of Joseph Smith&Co. play second fiddle. Reason being, the Book of Mormon can both be read as a 19th century product in some respects and an ancient document/artifact in other respects. You don't have to go through many clicks of the mouse to see that this is so.

I think that we can agree that Oliver Cowdery is a key player in the translation of the Book of Mormon. He was directly in cahoots with Joseph Smith in whatever occurred during the translation and publication period. It is useful to look at examples of the "nuts and bolts" of the translation procedure in order to get a snapshot of what was going on. Themis and others would like to expand the timeline for the production of the Book of Mormon text beyond the 90 day period and also take Joseph's head out of the hat, other than to have him insert it at times to put on a show for those who were purportedly being duped.

To put the actual translation period within a small window of time vs. an expanded window of time and to put Joseph's head in a hat reading words on a seerstone sets the stage for asking the simple question, "How in the heck did he do it?" That question then takes us into the realms of super memory capabilities, hole in the hat tricks...or translating through the gift and power of God in order to complete what would have been almost a super human task.

So here is one example of a nuts and bolts mini-snapshot of the translation process:

In explaining what he observes in the two manuscripts (original and printer's...O and P) for 1 Nephi 19:16, Skousen writes::

It appears that Oliver Cowdery first wrote "the prophets Zenos" in the original manuscript and then did not correct it until months later when he was copying from O [the original manuscript] into P [the printer's manuscript]. The plural s was probably the result of Oliver misinterpreting Joseph Smith's dictation of "the words of the prophet Zenos". Oliver was probably expecting "the words of the prophets", which occurs 14 times in the Book of Mormon. It would have been very difficult to hear the difference between "the prophet Zenos" and "the prophets Zenos", so it would have been hard to catch this error when Oliver read back the text to Joseph. This kind of s addition sometimes occurs when the following word begins with a sibilant sound (such as /s/, /z/, or /š/). Oliver made this same kind of mistake in Alma 41:14 when he took down Joseph's dictation for "my son see" as "my sons see" (see the discussion under Alma 41:14).

When Oliver Cowdery copied the text for this passage from O into P, he initially wrote "the Prophets Zenos" in the printer's manuscript. Realizing that the word prophet should be in the singular, he erased the s in the printer's manuscript, then apparently turned to correct O so that it would agree with P. But for some reason he also crossed out Zenos, as if he were correcting O to read "according to the words of the prophets", a distinct possibility but wrong in this case. Instead of rewriting the name Zenos, Oliver tried to erase the crossout lines, but only at the beginning of the name Zenos. He realized he had correctly copied the name into P, so it was unnecessary to fully correct O. In the end, he crossed out the plural s of prophets in O with a heavier ink flow. (He probably dipped his pen after having tried to erase the crossing out of Zenos.)

If Oliver Cowdery had crossed out Zenos originally when Joseph Smith was dictating the manuscript, he probably wouldn't have accidentally written it a second time when producing the printer's manuscript. It seems very likely that Joseph Smith read off the name Zenos; adding Zenos by accident seems highly unlikely since there is no nearby occurrence of this (or any other) prophet's name. (The name Zenos last occurred in verse 12, on the previous manuscript page of O.) Moreover, nowhere else in either manuscript does Oliver Cowdery (or any other scribe) accidentally add a name after writing the word prophet.1

Now, if the text of the Book of Mormon was cobbled together over a period of time previous to this translation period "mini-snapshot", wouldn't 1 Nephi 19:16 already have been written beforehand (weeks, months, years) and already be in finished compositional form before this particular sit down, back and forth, exercise between Joseph and Oliver? This snapshot can be multiplied by the hundreds as we move through the textual material in the Book of Mormon.

In other words's, to say that the Book of Mormon was written over a long period of time and that later (during the time just before publication) hat tricks were performed to fool the gullible, and that Joseph didn't actually sit down with scribes and go through "quick fire" translation processes of some kind are rather lame conclusions (along with others) to lay on the table. The evidence is that the translation was a complex, give and take exercise that occurred between Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. For them to be involved in a hoax the question needs to be asked, "Why does the evidence show that there was indeed a minute, time consuming, and detailed translation process going on between the two dupesters?"

This extract that I've posted from Skousen's Critical Edition of the Book of Mormon doesn't seem to lend itself towards some type of fraudulent conspiracy between Joseph and Oliver concocted over a long period of time.

At least that's the way I see it.

Regards,
MG

I'd appreciate it if someone could pick apart my logic in this post. I think that, as I said, the arguments for 19th century production of the Book of Mormon would have to run through the filter of translation procedures (and all that this entails) to hold any water. Buffalo's post with a zillion scriptures using the word "or" doesn't quite cut it for me.

Regards,
MG