Lehi's DNA

[_stemelbow]

I just don't think where your dogmatic sounding conclusions are coming from. I hope from a reliable source. Anything?

Second, it doesn't matter if the Northern Kingdom were descended from the Portuguese or the Dutch, they'd still be foreign to Native American populations and their introduction into the bloodline would be easily detectable.

And what's more, you're smart enough to know I'm right.

I just disagree. Prove to me that a relative small population which incorporates into another population is detectable in each case genetically? That is, afterall, what you'd be claiming. I don't' know if its all that easy. It seems quite complicated to me, just by reading the text itself.

Maybe this will help to illustrate what I'm talking about:

http://www.scs.illinois.edu/~mcdonald/W ... psMaps.pdf

http://www.scs.illinois.edu/~mcdonald/worldmtdnamap.pdf

As far as a "relatively small population" goes,


Ether 15:2
2 He saw that there had been slain by the sword already nearly two millions of his people, and he began to sorrow in his heart; yea, there had been slain two millions of mighty men, and also their wives and their children.


Mormon 6:14
14 And Lamah had fallen with his ten thousand; and Gilgal had fallen with his ten thousand; and Limhah had fallen with his ten thousand; and Jeneum had fallen with his ten thousand; and Cumenihah, and Moronihah, and Antionum, and Shiblom, and Shem, and Josh, had fallen with their ten thousand each.


Alma 60:22
22 Yea, will ye sit in idleness while ye are surrounded with thousands of those, yea, and tens of thousands, who do also sit in idleness, while there are thousands round about in the borders of the land who are falling by the sword, yea, wounded and bleeding?


Alma 28:11
11 And the bodies of many thousands are laid low in the earth, while the bodies of many thousands are moldering in heaps upon the face of the earth; yea, and many thousands are mourning for the loss of their kindred, because they have reason to fear, according to the promises of the Lord, that they are consigned to a state of endless wo.


Alma 3:26
26 And in one year were thousands and tens of thousands of souls sent to the eternal world, that they might reap their rewards according to their works, whether they were good or whether they were bad, to reap eternal happiness or eternal misery, according to the spirit which they listed to obey, whether it be a good spirit or a bad one.


Mormon 2:9
9 And now, the Lamanites had a king, and his name was Aaron; and he came against us with an army of forty and four thousand. And behold, I withstood him with forty and two thousand. And it came to pass that I beat him with my army that he fled before me. And behold, all this was done, and three hundred and thirty years had passed away.


Mormon 2:25
25 And it came to pass that we did contend with an army of thirty thousand against an army of fifty thousand. And it came to pass that we did stand before them with such firmness that they did flee from before us.[/quote]

Hey, Buffalo, I'm not sure how any of these passages suggest there was not genetic intermixing earlier on, before these numbers are mentioned? Indeed, in order to see such large numbers of people I'd think the relatively small populations of migraters would have to mix in with local peoples.

[_stemelbow]

Neither of those prove the case, actually. Please show me how you think so? Also my question is asking if such detection is possible in each and every case in the world. I realize there may be some instances where small populations who migrate and settle among larger host populations are genetically detectable. But that doesn't prove it for each and every case.

That's not the case with the Nephites.

What do you mean that is not the case? How many people were included in Lehi's co? We know for sure that their population was small, and even if there was but a small hamlet or two in mesoamerica, which we can well surmise there was far more than that, at the time of their arrival, it'd be true that they were small and the local pop was large. And how are we to assume that there was absolutely no mixing, absolutely no uniting and joining of peoples and groups? I just don't see how you can dogmatically assert your assumptions as though they are the only possibilities. It doesn't make a lot of sense.

[_Buffalo]

Hey, Buffalo, I'm not sure how any of these passages suggest there was not genetic intermixing earlier on, before these numbers are mentioned? Indeed, in order to see such large numbers of people I'd think the relatively small populations of migraters would have to mix in with local peoples.

Because it says that the Nephites remained "white and delightsome." You might make a case for Lamanites intermixing with Native Americans, but it wasn't until later in the Book of Mormon that there was any magical skin bleaching from on high. It's possible then that Nephites might have intermarried with Lamanites who had undergone the Michael Jackson treatment.

So yes, the Nephites grew to great numbers all by their lonesome. If there was intermixing it happened only after they had a significant population in the area.

Also note that the Book of Mormon itself makes NO mention of an existing population of natives, other than the Jaredites. Not only that, it explicitly says the land remained hidden from all other nations.

[_Buffalo]

What do you mean that is not the case? How many people were included in Lehi's co? We know for sure that their population was small, and even if there was but a small hamlet or two in mesoamerica, which we can well surmise there was far more than that, at the time of their arrival, it'd be true that they were small and the local pop was large. And how are we to assume that there was absolutely no mixing, absolutely no uniting and joining of peoples and groups? I just don't see how you can dogmatically assert your assumptions as though they are the only possibilities. It doesn't make a lot of sense.

See above. If they mixed with others it was only after they had grown to a large population on their own.

[_stemelbow]

Nope, the article on Jewish DNA was your introduction, not mine or Buffalo's (if I recall correctly). The "question on hand" was answered thoroughly in Southerton's thread. The DNA that would be expected to be found would be Middle Eastern/European.

Please establish why this would be expected to be found.

This DNA has been found in other populations where it has been expected (see: your Jewish DNA study). The Jewish DNA in your study is the same as what we would expect to find in Lehi's descendants. If that wasn't found, at least some other European/middle Eastern DNA should have been found. None of it has been.

I have yet to see anyone show that we can credibly say what should be expected here. A lot of assertions but nothing. Please show.

[_stemelbow]

So, you're asking me to prove that every DNA study that has ever been conducted is accurate? That makes no sense.

The claim was that in every case any migration can be traced genetically, by Buffalo and it seems you somehow agree. How is that known or possible? I'm asking for clarification.

[_Morley]

What do you mean that is not the case? How many people were included in Lehi's co? We know for sure that their population was small, and even if there was but a small hamlet or two in mesoamerica, which we can well surmise there was far more than that, at the time of their arrival, it'd be true that they were small and the local pop was large. And how are we to assume that there was absolutely no mixing, absolutely no uniting and joining of peoples and groups? I just don't see how you can dogmatically assert your assumptions as though they are the only possibilities. It doesn't make a lot of sense.

See above. If they mixed with others it was only after they had grown to a large population on their own.

Stem, you are suggesting that that a 1,000 year history of a people would neglect to even give a passing mention of another people they intermarried with and adopted as their own?

[_Baker]

Hey, Buffalo, I'm not sure how any of these passages suggest there was not genetic intermixing earlier on, before these numbers are mentioned? Indeed, in order to see such large numbers of people I'd think the relatively small populations of migraters would have to mix in with local peoples.

Because it says that the Nephites remained "white and delightsome." You might make a case for Lamanites intermixing with Native Americans, but it wasn't until later in the Book of Mormon that there was any magical skin bleaching from on high. It's possible then that Nephites might have intermarried with Lamanites who had undergone the Michael Jackson treatment.

So yes, the Nephites grew to great numbers all by their lonesome. If there was intermixing it happened only after they had a significant population in the area.

Also note that the Book of Mormon itself makes NO mention of an existing population of natives, other than the Jaredites. Not only that, it explicitly says the land remained hidden from all other nations.

This one kills me. When we look at Jacob, early in Nephite history, we learn that it was the Nephites, not Lamanites, that were out having multiple wives, concubines, etc. - the Lamanites were monogamous. So, if these other women were locals (can't imagine they were daughters, nieces, etc.), then the Nephites would have been the ones experiencing the change in skin color.

[_stemelbow]

Because it says that the Nephites remained "white and delightsome." You might make a case for Lamanites intermixing with Native Americans, but it wasn't until later in the Book of Mormon that there was any magical skin bleaching from on high. It's possible then that Nephites might have intermarried with Lamanites who had undergone the Michael Jackson treatment.

If white skin is to be taken literally rather than figuratively, I still don't see how this makes any sense. Later when there was some merging going on between Nephites and Lamanites (Like 3 Nephi era), skin colors, if literal, changed. Darker became lighter. Of course I don't see how we can determine what degree of skin color change was necessary. And previous to that there was some amounts of intermixing between those known as Lamanites and those known as Nephites. Later when they broke apart again, its hard, if not impossible to determine who was what, genetically.

So yes, the Nephites grew to great numbers all by their lonesome.

I really don't see how you've made your case at all. There could have been intermixing in Lehi's time and you wouldn't know. You haven't shown otherwise anyway.

If there was intermixing it happened only after they had a significant population in the area.

Also note that the Book of Mormon itself makes NO mention of an existing population of natives, other than the Jaredites. Not only that, it explicitly says the land remained hidden from all other nations.

I agree that the text doesn't make specific mention of others, but its implied to some extent. How else could Sherem not know or vice versa, Jacob? If as you say, there was no possible intermixing among them how could the population of Lehi's children get so big that prominent, seeming figures, never knew each other? I don't see how that would make sense.

[_Buffalo]

Because it says that the Nephites remained "white and delightsome." You might make a case for Lamanites intermixing with Native Americans, but it wasn't until later in the Book of Mormon that there was any magical skin bleaching from on high. It's possible then that Nephites might have intermarried with Lamanites who had undergone the Michael Jackson treatment.

If white skin is to be taken literally rather than figuratively, I still don't see how this makes any sense. Later when there was some merging going on between Nephites and Lamanites (Like 3 Nephi era), skin colors, if literal, changed. Darker became lighter. Of course I don't see how we can determine what degree of skin color change was necessary. And previous to that there was some amounts of intermixing between those known as Lamanites and those known as Nephites. Later when they broke apart again, its hard, if not impossible to determine who was what, genetically.

So yes, the Nephites grew to great numbers all by their lonesome.

I really don't see how you've made your case at all. There could have been intermixing in Lehi's time and you wouldn't know. You haven't shown otherwise anyway.

If there was intermixing it happened only after they had a significant population in the area.

Also note that the Book of Mormon itself makes NO mention of an existing population of natives, other than the Jaredites. Not only that, it explicitly says the land remained hidden from all other nations.

I agree that the text doesn't make specific mention of others, but its implied to some extent. How else could Sherem not know or vice versa, Jacob? If as you say, there was no possible intermixing among them how could the population of Lehi's children get so big that prominent, seeming figures, never knew each other? I don't see how that would make sense.

Really, Stem? You're now going to try to claim that that the skin color curse was figurative? There's no textual (or doctrinal) justification for that at all.

The Nephites could NOT have remained white if they had intermixed with any significant number of Natives. I assume you've seen what someone who is half white, half native American looks like, right? If there was intermixing, it didn't happen until later, when God started putting putting the stars back on the star-bellied Sneetches who'd had them removed previously.

I agree that the population growth early in the Book of Mormon is unrealistic, but that's not evidence of intermarriage, which is not mentioned (and would have been a no-no for Jews, anyway). It's evidence of a sloppy narrative.