The possibility of losing genetic markers

[_stemelbow]

I count up to around 68 people traveling across the waters to the Americas in the group. Here's where I went with that:
Lehi, Sariah, 6 boys (2 born int he wilderness so quite young on trip) 4 girls (the amount of girls is meant to match with how many sons of Ishmael plus 2, just an assumption since the text doesn't specify). Zoram, who took a daughter of Ishmael to wife. Nephi mentions in 1 Nephi 16 that they each took their families on the boat, so it appears all the couples had children). Ishmael, his wife, and the mentioned 2 sons (could be more but that's all we hear about). The five daughters that are mentioned all married and it seems had children.

1 Ne. 18 has them landing in the Americas around 590 BC. A pretty generous estimate of 68 people (I estimated 6 kids per family, even though most of the families would be quite young, it seems).
Lehi dies, we’ll say, in 580 BC. In the ten years then in the promised land, more children could have/would have been born. Let’s add 15 to the pile then.

We can also assume preaching took place in those 10 years. When Nephi takes his cadre of believers with him, he mentions specific names and adds “all those who would go with me” suggesting these un-named folks were “those who believed in the warnings and the revelations of God” (2. Ne 5:6). So with preaching let’s assume 60 additional people were also now part of the party.

To add, we still had Nephi’s sisters. Its probably not completely safe to assume, but let’s do it anyway. Let’s say 2 of Nephi’s sisters married locals.

The sum at Lehi’s death then, 142.

Soon after Lehi’s death came the split. Nephi, his family (8), Zoram, his family (8), Sam, his family (8), Jacob and Joseph(2), And Nephi’s sisters and their families (16) and any others who considered themselves believers (20). So we have 62 splitting from the main. That leaves 80 in the Lamanites camp (which if we do the math means the Lamanites had more locals in their group then the Nephites at this point).

Years trickle by pretty quickly in the narrative at this point. Soon settlements are established for both sides, buildings are built (temple among the Nephites), crops and livestock relied on and so forth. If the new parties presented benefits to the locals, which we’ll assume they do, in terms of agriculture, livestock and technology, then over the next many years, which are scarcely vaguely detailed in the text, it seems, there are many people who join with the groups, trade with the groups and become friendly. Except it mentions that the Lamanites turn out to be less sophisticated (perhaps because they incorporate themselves so well with natives).

So with that, we’ll say some are added to the Nephites and many more are added to the Lamanites, since shortly after this all those that aren’t favorable to the Nephites are those designated as Lamanites. We could guess each party double, tripled or grew by a multiple of ten over the next 30 or 40 years (or until Jacob’s accounts pick up in Jacob 1, which I know Jacob recorded some in 2 Ne but I’m simplifying). We’ll say 1,000 Nephites, since it appears like they grew quite a bit by Jacob’s writings and 2,000 Lamanites (which would really put in both groups a rather low level of genetic Middle-easterners).

About 540 BC (40 years after Lehi dies) the two groups grew exponentially not only due to fast reproduction but also due to lots of mingling, associating, and incorporating of outsiders. Indeed in Jacob, its bee noted, it seems weird that a person known as Sherem doesn’t personally know Jacob and Jacob doesn’t know him. If the group of Nephites went on for those 40 years without adding/incorporating outsiders it seems unlikely that the two would be unfamiliar with each other. I mean without any additions the whole group of Nephites at this time would be cousins, or quite close relatives. It’d be just highly unlikely that there wouldn’t be intermixing, you see, Nephi’s kids might end up marrying Zoram’s kids but they are still cousins, just as if Nephi’s kids married Sam’s kids (whichI grant is a possibility but seems unlikely in this scenario).

In Jacob’s account we learn that “evils” crept in among the Nephites. Many wives and concubines. I don’t’ know how that would work without outsiders, to tell the truth.

Jacob was born in the wilderness before the boat was built, pre-590 BC. Thus, if he lived to the ripe old age of 100 it’d be right around 500 BC when he died. Enos took to writing some information, but very little. But if 80 years had passed by the time Enos wrote down his piece, then we’re talking perhaps 450 BC (it is estimated at 420 BC, but that would mean Jacob had Enos at 80 so come on).

If the Nephites went from 62 in 580 BC to 1,000 by 540 BC, then perhaps their population climbed to 10,000 by 450 BC. Perhaps they gained influence as a united (or somewhat united) group. Perhaps the Lamanites, as heavily incorporated into the local Natives grew to 20,000 by that same time. This is not meant to be straight growth rate via birth, even if their birth rate and growth rate far exceeded those seen by today’s standards.

Interestingly this is the type of rapid increase that I think would need to occur for the many thousands that fight in later battles (by the time of Omni and Chemish there appears to be at least some battling with the Lamanites).

If at the time of Enos’ death both groups were pretty well built up by the influx of outsiders, then most to all the growth they had was through natural growth. But it must be realized then, that though there were some remnants, genetically, of Lehi in each group by this time, their genetic relation to Lehi among the whole was probably very minute compared to the genetic relation the population in Enos’ time must have had to the more local native peoples. As we can see, the genetic markers of Lehi and company would probably have been very hard to detect in Mosiah’s time, even moreso than in Enos’ time. As we move forward, by the time of Moroni, I’d think the genetic markers identifying Lehi’s relation would be largely gone. And since we read of the wide-spread killing and murdering, its hard to nail down any possible notion that we can detect a trace.

[_Joseph]

Very interesting that scientists are able to date skeletons from around the world and get genetic markers from many of them from the same time period as well as well before and after.

Very interesting that archaeologists are able to find ruins across the world and date the civilizations that built and inhabited them. They are able to find pot shards and bits of junk left behind, date it and recreate whole villages and structures.

Yet... not one damn thing from Nephites has shown up in the Americas.

[_Buffalo]

But we know because of the "white and delightsome" appearance of the Nephites that they DIDN'T intermarry with any natives (who, need I remind you, are not mentioned anywhere in the Book of Mormon). So what's the next logical conclusion about the unrealistic population growth?

[_stemelbow]

But we know because of the "white and delightsome" appearance of the Nephites that they DIDN'T intermarry with any natives (who, need I remind you, are not mentioned anywhere in the Book of Mormon). So what's the next logical conclusion about the unrealistic population growth?

Oh come on "white and Delightsome" is all relative anywho. In Nephi's day maybe "white" was somewhat middle eastern by today's standards. But 300 years after Nephi perhaps white was a few shades darker in complexion. And since no one took no photos of Nephi, perhaps Mosiah, thinking he's white, is actually what Nephi would have considered dark.

Now, let's discuss.

[_Buffalo]

But we know because of the "white and delightsome" appearance of the Nephites that they DIDN'T intermarry with any natives (who, need I remind you, are not mentioned anywhere in the Book of Mormon). So what's the next logical conclusion about the unrealistic population growth?

Oh come on "white and Delightsome" is all relative anywho. In Nephi's day maybe "white" was somewhat middle eastern by today's standards. But 300 years after Nephi perhaps white was a few shades darker in complexion. And since no one took no photos of Nephi, perhaps Mosiah, thinking he's white, is actually what Nephi would have considered dark.

Now, let's discuss.

Nephi and the Nephites seemed very concerned about skin color. It's even mentioned that one reason God cursed the Lamanites is so that the Nephites wouldn't be tempted to marry them. Obviously they had a cultural aversion to marrying anyone with dark skin.

[_just me]

How would the Lehites been able to come into contact with the natives without killing them with their foreign germs?

Given the life expectancy of the time period, which was about 30 years old. I don't think the population could have gotten so big so quickly. Infant mortality would have been WAY high. Fewer children would have lived to reproduce than not.

If there was a tribe of healthy, robust people who were living very long lives it seems everyone would have wanted to mate with them. They would have left behind lots of evidence, genetic and otherwise.

[_just me]

But we know because of the "white and delightsome" appearance of the Nephites that they DIDN'T intermarry with any natives (who, need I remind you, are not mentioned anywhere in the Book of Mormon). So what's the next logical conclusion about the unrealistic population growth?

Oh come on "white and Delightsome" is all relative anywho. In Nephi's day maybe "white" was somewhat middle eastern by today's standards. But 300 years after Nephi perhaps white was a few shades darker in complexion. And since no one took no photos of Nephi, perhaps Mosiah, thinking he's white, is actually what Nephi would have considered dark.

Now, let's discuss.

What do you think was meant by "white" when used in the Book of Mormon? Why do you think it was even in there? Do you think that God really cursed the skin of the Lamanites turning it "dark?"

Funny, when "white" is used in the Bible to refer to skin it is always in a negative way. (someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I did read that a while back) Then we have the Book of Mormon come along and suddenly "white" skin is good and "dark" skin is bad.

[_stemelbow]

Nephi and the Nephites seemed very concerned about skin color. It's even mentioned that one reason God cursed the Lamanites is so that the Nephites wouldn't be tempted to marry them. Obviously they had a cultural aversion to marrying anyone with dark skin.

I don't think that's obvious. Back in my single days I didn't search out a woman among the homeless, no offense to the homeless. Perhaps they were made loathsome to Nephi's people because of their behavior, which it lists in the passages following the skin cursing.

On top of that, I don't think skin color was that big of a deal to the Nephites anyway. And I'm also not sold that the skin color thing was literal, but I won't worry too much about that.

[_stemelbow]

What do you think was meant by "white" when used in the Book of Mormon? Why do you think it was even in there?

Oh I don't know exactly. It could have been a figurative thought among the people. "skins" could have referred to garments or something. Thus a skin of blackness might have been heavily soiled garments, or weighed deeply in sinfulness. Its a stretch for sure, but since we probably don't have a lot of a context considering their idioms there are plenty of possibilities. And if literal, then white skin might not really be all that white. Who else did they have it compared to, afterall?

Do you think that God really cursed the skin of the Lamanites turning it "dark?"

Nope. I don't. I think it was a figurative thing, but I could certainly be corrected on that.

[Guest]

...snip...

Your "logic" would also explain why we can't find hobbit "genetic markers" among the lamanite population...My very guess is that we wont find "genetic markers" for any fictitious group of people in the native peoples of any continent.