The Great Debate

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
_Frank J Sheed
_Emeritus
Posts: 44
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:52 pm

Re: The Great Debate

Post by _Frank J Sheed »

Joseph wrote:"Why would the Lord's method be the most subjective and unreliable method imaginable? Just trust your feelings?"
************************************

It works for High School kids trying to find a hot date, why not for a religion?


Need I remind you people of how Luke Skywalker blew up the Death Star? That's right. He trusted his feelings. Duh, winning.
_Buffalo
_Emeritus
Posts: 12064
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:33 pm

Re: The Great Debate

Post by _Buffalo »

Frank J Sheed wrote:
Need I remind you people of how Luke Skywalker blew up the Death Star? That's right. He trusted his feelings. Duh, winning.


Doh!
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Kevin Graham
_Emeritus
Posts: 13037
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:44 pm

Re: The Great Debate

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Frank J Sheed wrote:
Joseph wrote:"Why would the Lord's method be the most subjective and unreliable method imaginable? Just trust your feelings?"
************************************

It works for High School kids trying to find a hot date, why not for a religion?


Need I remind you people of how Luke Skywalker blew up the Death Star? That's right. He trusted his feelings. Duh, winning.


Need I remind you that Luke Skywalker doesn't exist, nor did he ever?
_Frank J Sheed
_Emeritus
Posts: 44
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:52 pm

Re: The Great Debate

Post by _Frank J Sheed »

Kevin Graham wrote:
Need I remind you that Luke Skywalker doesn't exist, nor did he ever?


CFR
_schreech
_Emeritus
Posts: 2470
Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 3:49 pm

Re: The Great Debate

Post by _schreech »

Frank J Sheed wrote:CFR


I <3 frank J sheed...
"your reasoning that children should be experimented upon to justify a political agenda..is tantamount to the Nazi justification for experimenting on human beings."-SUBgenius on gay parents
"I've stated over and over again on this forum and fully accept that I'm a bigot..." - ldsfaqs
_Kevin Graham
_Emeritus
Posts: 13037
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:44 pm

Re: The Great Debate

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Frank J Sheed wrote:
Kevin Graham wrote:
Need I remind you that Luke Skywalker doesn't exist, nor did he ever?


CFR


The Holy Ghost told me.
_Frank J Sheed
_Emeritus
Posts: 44
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:52 pm

Re: The Great Debate

Post by _Frank J Sheed »

Look, Kevin, and all other so-called skeptics, your beef is not with me; it's with God and His prophets. They are the ones who have given us the key to salvation and exaltation. Heavenly Father in His perfect wisdom established the order of things. He is the one who has said over and over again, through revelation to His chosen prophets, that one cannot enter the kingdom of heaven without being baptized both of water and of the Spirit. The Holy Ghost's companionship is required to understand the plan of salvation and to endure to the end in faith. Not a degree in Logic. The Lord's ways defy logic. Apologists get themselves tied up in knots trying to answer every criticism with logic and reason. People leave the church because they lose their faith because they are deceived by the sophistries of so-called intellectuals like those who infest this board. The Luke Skywalker reference was something of a joke, but the point is still made: he didn't blow up the death star with reason, he did it with faith (metaphorically--of course, I don't believe he existed). Just as Jesus didn't perform His miracles and die for our sins or get resurrected through reason and science--He did it through faith and the priesthood, the power of God.

As for your references to purple unicorns and flying spaghetti monsters and all similar such nonsense, here is the difference: none of those fictitious gods ever inspired millions to do good, build churches, help the poor, make bad men good and good men better, the way the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has done. By their fruits ye shall know them. To the extent people follow the Light of Christ (if not LDS) and the promptings of the Holy Ghost (if baptized and confirmed), they become better people, their countenances shine forth gloriously, and they feel--yes FEEL--the goodness and tender mercies of the Lord within. This is real evidence. Like the effects of the wind, the Spirit can be felt even if its origins are not understood. O ye of little faith, I ask you to be wise! Doubt not! Fear not! No longer persecute those who have the light merely because you think yourself superior in reasoning and logic. Stop worshiping at the altar of science and philosophy, and let the simple truths of the restored gospel heal your soul and give your spirit rest.
_Kevin Graham
_Emeritus
Posts: 13037
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:44 pm

Re: The Great Debate

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Look, Kevin, and all other so-called skeptics, your beef is not with me; it's with God and His prophets.

No, it is with anyone who tells me I don't know the truth because I'm not in touch with my feelings. That's idiotic.
They are the ones who have given us the key to salvation and exaltation.

Joseph Smith gave us polygamy, crappy underwear, an extension or racism, and aa slew of other stupid doctrines that were designed to serve his own purposes.
Heavenly Father in His perfect wisdom established the order of things. He is the one who has said over and over again, through revelation to His chosen prophets, that one cannot enter the kingdom of heaven without being baptized both of water and of the Spirit.

Prove it.
The Holy Ghost's companionship is required to understand the plan of salvation and to endure to the end in faith.

Prove it.
Not a degree in Logic. The Lord's ways defy logic.

Prove it.
Apologists get themselves tied up in knots trying to answer every criticism with logic and reason.

Because their beliefs are not logical or reasonable.
People leave the church because they lose their faith because they are deceived by the sophistries of so-called intellectuals like those who infest this board.

No, they leave the faith because they used their God given mental faculties to deduce truths the Church has either obscured or hidden. This is why I can sleep well at night, knowing perfectly well that all I have done is use teh brain God gave me. If he didn't want me to use reason and logic, he shouldn't have created creatures with that capacity.
The Luke Skywalker reference was something of a joke, but the point is still made: he didn't blow up the death star with reason, he did it with faith (metaphorically--of course, I don't believe he existed). Just as Jesus didn't perform His miracles and die for our sins or get resurrected through reason and science--He did it through faith and the priesthood, the power of God.

You're an idiot.
As for your references to purple unicorns and flying spaghetti monsters and all similar such nonsense, here is the difference: none of those fictitious gods ever inspired millions to do good, build churches, help the poor, make bad men good and good men better, the way the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has done.

It also produces inquisitions, Crusades, witch trials, lynching, etc. Your modern version of God produces a cult of hypnotized morons who believe masonic symbols on their underwear are important for salvation. They make people better, says who? Utah ranks high in depression, suicides and bankruptcies. You only pay tithes and do charity for selfish reasons, because you're told you can work your way into heaven. So whenever you help the poor, you do it for yourself.
By their fruits ye shall know them.

And sicne Joseph Smith was a pervert and a liar, that's all we need to know really.
To the extent people follow the Light of Christ (if not LDS) and the promptings of the Holy Ghost (if baptized and confirmed), they become better people, their countenances shine forth gloriously, and they feel--yes FEEL--the goodness and tender mercies of the Lord within. This is real evidence.

It is the same crap you see at Benny Hinn conferences.
Like the effects of the wind, the Spirit can be felt even if its origins are not understood.

Prove it. Prove there is a distinction between spirit and self-induced feelings. You can't. All your feelings represent is proof that what I say is true, since you induce these feelings to serve your presuppositions. SOmeone who wants to feel a certain way badly enough, will.
O ye of little faith, I ask you to be wise!

You don't know what faith is. Faith never meant to blind acceptance of stupid beliefs, simply because they have no evidence.
Doubt not! Fear not! No longer persecute those who have the light merely because you think yourself superior in reasoning and logic. Stop worshiping at the altar of science and philosophy, and let the simple truths of the restored gospel heal your soul and give your spirit rest.

You're an idiot.
_thews
_Emeritus
Posts: 3053
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2009 2:26 pm

Re: The Great Debate

Post by _thews »

Frank J Sheed wrote:
thews wrote:show me the money. What exactly do you find "pretty dang persuasive" about Jeff Lindsay's argument?


This may be hard for you who are "past feeling" to understand, but it's like this: when confronted with two possible answers to a gospel question, the answer is the one that supports and sustains faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His Church on earth. The Lord's ways are not the world's ways. This board is a perfect example of how reason alone is not sufficient to answer questions about the truthfulness of the gospel. Hence the need for the Holy Ghost to know "the truth of all things." By no other means can one come to a knowledge of the truth but by the Holy Ghost. When I read Jeff Lindsay's arguments about the Book of Abraham, my faith is strengthened and the Holy Ghost whispers to my soul that what he says is true. When I read California Kid's arguments, I feel a coldness, a darkness, a sense that while it sounds enticing, his theories are really just clever deceptions. Only one familiar with the Holy Ghost and His promptings can truly understand the process of knowing by revelation and not just "knowing" by logic and reason. When logic and reason are used to support and sustain faith, the Holy Ghost acts to certify and confirm the truth. When logic and reason are used to destroy faith, the Holy Ghost confirms and certifies to the faithful to reject the philosophies of men, whether mingled with scripture or otherwise presented. So, in short, I trust Jeff Lindsay's arguments because they strengthen my faith in what I know to be true (by the power of the Holy Ghost) and the Holy Ghost confirms to me that they are true. That those who are hardened to the truth acknowledge their inability to feel the promptings of the Holy Ghost further confirms that my method for discerning truth (which is the Lord's method--see Moroni 10:3-5) works. Anyone who follows the Lord's method can know the truth. Those who reject it cannot, and do not. It works every time, and is truly marvelous.

In your argument above, you use a need to trust Jeff Lindsay's arguments because they strengthen your faith. If they are true, then why would you avoid quoting what you find persuasive? Claiming California Kid's arguments are "clever deceptions" without giving an example just shows your bias. We aren't talking about feelings, but facts based on data. If you wouldn't mind, just quote the part that you find persuasive. I know Jeff Lindsay's tactics well and they're transparent, but if what you wish is to believe anyone who will solidify what you need to be true, it should be based on truth... would you agree? Regarding Jeff Lindsay's arguments and what you stated you found persuasive, please post what you find persuasive and link the source.

Thanks
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths
_CaliforniaKid
_Emeritus
Posts: 4247
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:47 am

Re: The Great Debate

Post by _CaliforniaKid »

I admit that my scholarly writing can sometimes be a bit cold (analytical) and dark (complex). I'm working on trying to be a bit warmer and brighter.
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