Critical analysis of the stone box

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_zeezrom
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Re: Critical analysis of the stone box

Post by _zeezrom »

God made the box?

Don't you mean God organized matter into the shape of a box?
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

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_jskains
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Re: Critical analysis of the stone box

Post by _jskains »

Sure. A lot of religion requires supernatural components. A man who alone can make universes is a supernatural thing. So if He wanted the gold to be very light, then He can make it that way. And I am sure portability was a concern, so He made the box that way too.

You wanted some quick response from a defender, there ya go.

JMS
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition from Mediocre Minds - Albert Einstein
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Critical analysis of the stone box

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Hello,

Where is the stone box?

V/R
Dr. Cam
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_jskains
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Re: Critical analysis of the stone box

Post by _jskains »

In Heaven with the plates.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition from Mediocre Minds - Albert Einstein
_Polygamy-Porter
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Re: Critical analysis of the stone box

Post by _Polygamy-Porter »

jskains wrote:In Heaven with the plates.

Thank you for your response Josh.

Do you believe in the giant cave inside of the hill Cumorah?
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_zeezrom
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Re: Critical analysis of the stone box

Post by _zeezrom »

I sort of wonder why heaven of all places was chosen for the site of the Hill Camorah memorial. It seems to me that a more practical solution would have been to simply convert the molecular structure of the stone to that of sandy clay loam mixed with organic materials. If God has the power and gumption to convert the mass to energy and port it by light waves to a distant star, he might as well just re-organize the material locally.

If I were a defender, I think I would go with the more practical method.
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

The Holy Sacrament.
_kairos
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Re: Critical analysis of the stone box

Post by _kairos »

Moroni to God: " Uh you want me to make what?"

God: "A stone box to keep all the stuff in for 1400 years"

Moroni: " Why me? I lugged 200 pounds of gold plates, the compass banging around my neck and that damn sword has been dragging and hitting my shins for 15 years. And you want me to make a stone box?"

God: Yep and its gotta be carried up the hill, dug into the ground and you put all the stuff in it and seal it up"

Moroni: This is not gonna be easy!

God: I never said it would be easy I said it would be worth it!

Moroni: I thought Jesus said that !

God : Lots of Mormons believe that because paul dunn wrote in a book.


Moroni: Ok I will make the box, carry it up the hill and put the stuff in it- but you must promise me one thing.


God: Ok , what?

Moroni: You gotta promise i will be translated so i can come back later and see what happened to all this sh**!

God: Done, but watch your mouth!
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Critical analysis of the stone box

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

jskains wrote:In Heaven with the plates.


Hello Mr. Josh,

Would you mind providing a reference for that claim? Thank you in advance.

V/R
Dr. Cameron "I know there's gotta be a stone box around here somewhere" NC for Me
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_zeezrom
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Re: Critical analysis of the stone box

Post by _zeezrom »

Hello Porter,

I have taken the liberty of designing this stone box. Please refer to the figure below. I need to explain a couple of things. This is an extremely challenging design! I have designed many buried vault structures in my career and this one takes the cake. Typical design life requirements are around 50 years. I have never before designed any structure that must be guaranteed to survive more than 90 years. A structure like this would need to be stout indeed to be guaranteed for 1400 years, Good God!

Here are the issues at hand:

1. Groundwater: Every time it rains, water will percolate through the ground in a downward and downhill direction until it hits the shallow groundwater aquifer. Hopefully, this box is not sitting in the shallow aquifer or we are in deep crap. Let's assume the aquifer is deeper than the box - okay since this is a hill. Without some sort of drain rock around the structure, water will make it's way into the box. This is absolutely unacceptable! Water inside the box will kill everything in the box due to corrosion and freeze-thaw cycles. We need some sort of conduits to convey groundwater away from below the box. How will he have built these? With hollowed timbers? Sealed with sheepskin oil? Oh brother. I have no idea how to keep all moisture out of this box. We are screwed! But let me continue.

2. Seismic movement: In case of earthquakes and tremors, we need to design a structure that can withstand lateral and vertical movement. Bricks are just about the worst thing you can use for such a scenario. Reinforcement with a ductile material (steel) is preferred but I can't think of how in the hell Moroni is going to get that so I'm thinking we should just make the walls beefier. Currently, I'm showing blocks that are 24 inches thick and 10 inches high. In reality, we should double up the bricks because this box would likely fail in a 7+ seismic event. This means we should make the walls 48 inches thick - just to make sure. Hey, if I'm stamping this drawing, I need to make sure it's done right.

3. Lateral movement due to erosion: Over the long period of 1400 years, a large amount of sediment will likely be transported down the hill. I'm assuming the box was built about half way up the hill so sediments from the top of the hill would work their way down over the years. This is a very iffy assumption. I really have no idea whether we are gaining sediment or losing sediment due to erosion. But since the top of the box was buried with dirt in order to hide it from the world, I'll assume sediments accumulated above the box. This lateral movement of water and sediments will present a constant force on the uphill wall of the box. We need beefy walls to support this. Not only that, but without reinforcement in the walls, we must rely on the weight of the bricks to keep the wall together. I'm not comfortable relying on that!

4. Lateral earth pressure: the in-situ horizontal pressure exerted on the 4 walls is taken care of by installing structural backfill around the walls and ensuring that the groundwater is drained away from the structure. A larger foundation below the box will help support the walls under this lateral pressure. Without obtaining soil samples, I cannot design this but we will assume a design for now.

5. Box lid: I'm very concerned about this lid. Where am I going to find a stone that is only 12 inches thick but that can span nearly 4 feet in two directions for 1400 years! I wish the lid could be thicker but I don't know how Joseph Smith could move it if we made it thicker. Maybe Moroni helped him move it? How would Moroni get this lid up the hill? Poor guy...

Image
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

The Holy Sacrament.
_Polygamy-Porter
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Re: Critical analysis of the stone box

Post by _Polygamy-Porter »

AmaZEEing!

Nice work Z! Excellent graphic too!

I guess old Joe did not know the things that you know when he made up the story of a stone box.

Freeze thaw cycles are huge and would have split that box open by cracking the joint lines.

I wonder if they will go look for a similar stone box ruins to prove that stone boxes were used back then! A stone box in a less harsh environment may have lasted, but not unscathed.

With the tremendous amount of water that the hill receives each year due to the "lake effect" snows, it is impossible any box could have remained intact and perfectly sealed.

The soil/sediment drift is a great point also, especially since it was on a hill.

What amazes me further is that intelligent thinking people like Daniel Peterson know what you are talking about and he knows how impossible it is that this stone box remained perfectly intact and sealed for 1400 years.

It just shows how powerful a religion can be. Mind control is at work here on some bright minds.
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