The Great Martin Harris Seer Stone Swap

[_Fence Sitter]

To reiterate, if the details of this account are accurate let's look at another possibility. Joseph may have recognized the stone was swapped either by spiritual inspiration or physical recognition.

If Joseph believed in "seer stones" (many statements make that claim), and it is very likely that he did since it was common for the time and region for people to believe in them, he may have thought that he needed "his" special stone for the translation to work. Or the LORD knew what Martin Harris was up to and delayed the work which caused Joseph to realize something was wrong.

I believe the LORD uses us in ways that are natural to us. If his natural trust in a "seer stone" helped him to "tune" into the divine influence so he could perform the work, so be it.

The important key is that the Book of Mormon was the result.

This does not explain how Harris could hope to fool Joseph with another stone. Whether or not Joseph used seer stones or not isn't what makes this story implausible or how he recognized the swap. It's the part where Harris is supposed to believe he had any possibility of fooling Joseph Smith with another stone that is farfetched. If the story is correct as told then it is not an example of inspiration on the part of Joseph Smith, it merely shows Harris to be a simpleton.

[_Themis]

To reiterate, if the details of this account are accurate let's look at another possibility. Joseph may have recognized the stone was swapped either by spiritual inspiration or physical recognition.

Based on the account, either does not work from the POV that the church is true. Remember Harris said he was confounded. He was or he was pretending to be.

[_stemelbow]

So God witnesses the attempted deception unfold. Being the Wise one He chooses to demonstrate a lesson to Harris. don't' try to deceive, you idiot. I see it all. Thus, God knowing there was some effort to trick by Harris He stops the translation to uncover the trick.

The work then moves on without problem because the purity of heart of those involved, even Harris, must reach a certain point.

Thanks for setting up such an easy thing to hit out the park (I say tongue in cheek).

[_Joseph]

since it was common for the time and region for people to believe in them...

***********************

Can you name a dozen decent people from that time that believed in magic peepstones? I don't mean gullible fools like harris & co. Decent people like Thmoas Jefferson, Merriweather Lewis, orchestral performers and inventors.
Real people, not backwoods charlatans.

[_Themis]

So God witnesses the attempted deception unfold. Being the Wise one He chooses to demonstrate a lesson to Harris. don't' try to deceive, you idiot. I see it all. Thus, God knowing there was some effort to trick by Harris He stops the translation to uncover the trick.

The work then moves on without problem because the purity of heart of those involved, even Harris, must reach a certain point.

Thanks for setting up such an easy thing to hit out the park (I say tongue in cheek).

Either that or Harris was just gullible and easy to fool.

[_Fence Sitter]

Perhaps God chose Harris because he was guillible and easy to fool. Why have to perform a miracle when sleight of hand will do.

[_thews]

So God witnesses the attempted deception unfold. Being the Wise one He chooses to demonstrate a lesson to Harris. don't' try to deceive, you idiot. I see it all. Thus, God knowing there was some effort to trick by Harris He stops the translation to uncover the trick.

The work then moves on without problem because the purity of heart of those involved, even Harris, must reach a certain point.

This analogy is ridiculous. First we have Joe Smith using his peepstone to find buried treasures and "see" the evil treasure guardians so he could perform his occult magic to appease them (before the Book of Mormon). Then God chooses Joe Smith to unlock the secrets of the gold plates, and with the plates he gives him the Nephite spectacles. But when evil doers supposedly stole the lost pages, God punishes Joe Smith by taking the Nephite spectacles back, forcing Joe to use his occult magic rocks placed in hat... just as he did when he was a glass-looker (before the Book of Mormon). Now, when Martin Harris attempts to fool Joe Smith with a switcheroo of the rock, it was God who stepped in to teach Harris a lesson? You actually believe this is critical thought based on sound logic, which I find tragically sad.

Thanks for setting up such an easy thing to hit out the park (I say tongue in cheek).

The only thing you knocked out of the park was common sense.

I realize you don't like to answer questions Stem (you do respond to them), by what power did Joseph Smith use to find the pin for Martin Harris using his seer stone and old white hat? Was it done by using the power of God?

[_stemelbow]

This analogy is ridiculous. First we have Joe Smith using his peepstone to find buried treasures and "see" the evil treasure guardians so he could perform his occult magic to appease them (before the Book of Mormon). Then God chooses Joe Smith to unlock the secrets of the gold plates, and with the plates he gives him the Nephite spectacles. But when evil doers supposedly stole the lost pages, God punishes Joe Smith by taking the Nephite spectacles back, forcing Joe to use his occult magic rocks placed in hat... just as he did when he was a glass-looker (before the Book of Mormon). Now, when Martin Harris attempts to fool Joe Smith with a switcheroo of the rock, it was God who stepped in to teach Harris a lesson? You actually believe this is critical thought based on sound logic, which I find tragically sad.

Your contentious pose bores me, to be honest. If I was speaking to a child I might feel a little more likely to respond with patience.

The only thing you knocked out of the park was common sense.

Seriously, you seem to have reached the maturity level of an 11 year and decided that was enough.

I realize you don't like to answer questions Stem (you do respond to them), by what power did Joseph Smith use to find the pin for Martin Harris using his seer stone and old white hat? Was it done by using the power of God?

I'm surprised you don't realize that its not that people don't like to answer your questions as much as it is people just plain don't care for your contentious, arrogant style. I'm here to discuss things with people who intend to teach me more about life, not to quibble about stupid little jabs, while the other is doing nothing but trying to make me feel small because I'm Mormon. Sorry dude. I get why you want the "attack the person" thing to stick in the terrestrial forum now. Its your MO. I'll pray in hopes you get that dark spot out of your heart. Sound good?

[_stemelbow]

Either that or Harris was just gullible and easy to fool.

Not to mention the others, of course. Harris, Cowdery, Emma, and Whitmer were probably all easy to fool, or we can assume that, I suppose.

[_Themis]

Not to mention the others, of course. Harris, Cowdery, Emma, and Whitmer were probably all easy to fool, or we can assume that, I suppose.

Harris has the history to show his gullibility. Many followings generally do get the gullible. Cowdery acording to church history was lead astray by Hyram Page and his seer stone. I can't remember where it s but a number of early leaders of the church started to follow some female soothsayer or prophetess while Joseph was out of town. I think Emma may have known much of what was going on. She did after all run away and marry a person she knew was a treasure seeker with a rock in a hat, and has lied about him as well.

People who already have certain beliefs can easily be fooled concerning them. Joseph was also very talented and even expereinced with this kind of thing. We only give him the benfit of the doubt because of the beliefs we have, but we easily see through all those others in other religions.