Rich's Website

[_rich kelsey]

For those interested in reading more of this article:

An Incredible Story Part IV — Those Mysterious Golden Plates

Rich Kelsey

(Continued to the end - final section of this article)

Perhaps Smith was trying to add credibility to the story he was telling of finding tangible plates, which could have been melted down and sold; and, how he overcame that temptation for the glory of God? One thing is certain: later versions of Smith's stories add details unheard of in earlier versions.

Folk Magic or Divine Calling:[xlix]

Mormon apologist Mark Ashurst-McGee begs this question:

“Whether or not one believes an actual being appeared to Joseph Smith, the question is whether Moroni evolved from a treasure guardian into an angel in Joseph’s telling of the event.[l]

To answer Mark’s question, let’s look into a few early accounts of Smith trying to obtain the gold plates: Let's start at the point in Smith's story where he removes the plates from the stone box and sets them on the ground; which is something the personage, angel of the Lord, or spirit, depending on which account one reads, had told him not to do:

Smith’s mother Lucy explained:

“In the moment of excitement, Joseph was overcome by the powers of darkness, and forgot the injunction that was laid upon him. Having some further conversation with the angel on this occasion, Joseph was permitted to raise the stone again, when he beheld the plates as he had done before. He immediately reached forth his hand to take them, but instead of getting them, as he anticipated, he was hurled back upon the ground with great violence. When he recovered, the angel was gone, and he arose and returned to the house weeping for grief and disappointment.” (Lucy Smith, Biographical Sketches, p. 347)

Inconsistencies:

The accounts of Martin Harris, Joseph Knight and Lucy Smith paint a far different picture than what is spelled out in the final version of Smith's story:

Nowhere[li] in Smith’s 1838 History, is it mentioned that:

· Smith discovered the plates with his stone.

· He laid the plates down contrary to the spirit’s instruction.

· He was hurled back when trying to obtain them a second time.

· He was told to bring his oldest brother Alvin, and if he did, he could have the plates next September 22nd.

· Yet, Alvin died before another attempt could be made

· Smith didn’t know what to do.

· He was told once more that he might have them the next September 22nt if he brought the right person.

The conversation about the spirit telling him from the very beginning that:

“…the time for bringing them forth had not yet arrived; neither would it, until four years from that time…”[lii]

runs contrary to general theme of all the early accounts which is a clear indication that this, (four-year-from-now) doctrine, is a later invention. Smith’s stories change over time: In early versions of the gold plate stories, as we have seen, bringing the right person was[liii] the central theme.

Inconsistencies — Continued:

Joseph Knight records:[liv]

· “…the personage appeared and told him he could not have it now. But the 22nd day of September next he might have it if he brought the right person.”

· “Joseph says, ‘Who is the right person?’ the answer was, ‘You will know.’”

· “Then he [Joseph Smith] looked in his glass and found it was Emma Hale.”

These details are also left out of Smith’s 1838 History which is the version the LDS Church maintains today.

Note: As far as the story goes, Joseph Smith left his wife in the carriage on the night of September, 22nd, 1827; then he proceeded up the hill alone to meet Moroni and receive the plates. Why would he not bring Emma to meet Moroni if Emma was the right person to bring? One would think leaving Emma in the carriage would be a violation of the angel's instructions. Could it be that in reality there was no angel for her to meet?

Also, in Knight’s account we see that Smith has a “glass” or in other words a “stone” in which he can discern spiritual things. This brings to mind images of a clairvoyant looking into a crystal ball. Back in Smith’s day this type of activity was called soothsaying:

Joseph’s mother: Lucy Mack Smith speaks of the family drawing “magic circles,” “abrac” — which is short for (abracadabra), and “sooth saying.”

“Let not the reader suppose that because I shall pursue another topic for a season that we stopt (sic) our labor and went at trying to win the faculty of Abrac drawing Magic circles or sooth saying to the neglect of all kinds of business.” (Biographical Sketches… Smith, Lucy Mack, Liverpool, England: S. W. Richards. 1853)

Magic circles are used to form a space of magical protection from the spirit the person is invoking. Soothsaying is the supernatural ability to perceive things, including what may happen in the future.

More Problems:

Smith’s Mother Lucy said,

“…for in a former revelation he had been commanded not to lay the plates down, or put them for a moment out of his hands, until he got into the house and deposited them in a chest or trunk, having a good lock and key, and, contrary to this, he had laid them down…”[Las Vegas]

According to Lucy: The “angel of the Lord”[lvi] had made it very clear to her son, that he was not to put the plates out of his hands, even for a moment! Years before, the angel had chastised Joseph by violently hurling him for disobeying this primary instruction!

The morning Joseph Smith supposedly really did get the plates, what he actually came home with was another story. That morning he told his family that he had hidden the plates in the woods three miles away:

[When Joseph] “…went to bring the record which he had deposited in a cavity in a birch log 3 miles distant he too and covered it with the bark of the same he took the plates from their place and wrapping them in his linen frock put them under his arm and started for home the house.” (Lucy Smith, Biographical Sketches, First Draft, 1844/45 p. 385) [original spelling]

Hiding the plates in the woods 3 miles away is without a doubt a major violation of the angel’s primary command? It certainly falls into the category of letting them out of his hands before he brings them into the house.[lvii]

The only thing that makes sense: Smith changed his story again; because, he came home empty handed one more time.

Also, it is recorded in Lucy’s history that Joseph Smith had yet to find a chest, or have one built, to put the plates in, until after[lviii] he supposedly obtained the plates and hid them in the woods. Lucy writes about a neighbor who asked Joseph to dig a well for her. Lucy explains that, by digging the well, Joe was earning the money to pay the cabinet maker. What all this means is: as the story goes, the plates were in the woods for several days at the very least, before Joseph brought them into the house.

During this time Joseph assured his family that the plates were safe because he had a “key.” He explained that this “key” made it possible for him to tell if the plates were in danger:

“Joseph kept the urim and thumim constantly about his person as he could by this means ascertain at any moment whether <if> the plates were in danger & having just looked into them before Emma got there he perceived her coming and came up out of the well and met her … he told her that the record was perfectly safe for the present.” (Lucy Smith, Biographical Sketches, First Draft, 1844/45 p. 384)

Point of Interest: In Lucy’s rundown of her son’s history, she had used the term “keys” earlier, to describe why Josiah Stoal [Stowell] wanted her son to work for him:

“…a man by the name of Josiah Stoal, came from Chenango co., New York, with the view of getting Joseph to assist him in digging for a silver mine. He came for Joseph on account of having heard that he possessed certain keys, by which he could discern things invisible to the natural eye.” (Biographical Sketches… Smith, Lucy Mack, Liverpool, England: S. W. Richards. 1853, pp.91-92)

Smith had been using his seer stones, along with his supposed gift of second sight, years before the angel gave him the “key.” This is good example of history being re-interpreted. From this point on, Smith became known as the prophet who obtained the Urim and Thumim from an angel. Turning his back on his old stone-peeping days! Right?

No. That understanding is only an Illusion.[lix] The words Urim and Thumim were never spoken to Lucy Smith by her son Joseph in the late 1820s. Smith originally called the stones supposedly supplied by the divine messenger, “interpreters.”[lx]

Then, about 1833, an associate of Smith’s: W.W. Phelps speculated that the interpreters[lxi] obtained by Joseph Smith might be the Urim and Thummim of the Old Testament:

“The Book of Mormon… was translated by the gift and power of God, by an unlearned man, through the aid of a pair of Interpreters, or spectacles-(known, perhaps, in ancient days as Teraphim, or Urim and Thummim)” (The Evening and Morning Star, Vol. 1 p. 57, Jan. 1833)

From that point on, the words Urim and Thumim were written into foundational Church History.

Here is an example:

BC 9:1, p. 22 — Now, behold I say unto you, that because you delivered up so many writings, which you had power to translate, into the hands of a wicked man, you have lost them, and you also lost your gift at the same time… …
[Harmony, Pennsylvania May 1829]

[See actual photo]

D&C 10:1 9:1 — Now, behold I say unto you, that because you delivered up those writings, which you had power given unto you to translate by the means of the Urim and Thummim, into the hands of a wicked man, you have lost them…
(v.2) And you also lost your gift at the same time…

This is a clear example of Smith and his associates re-writing their history and backdating it in succeeding publications.

Smith described the Urim and Thummim as a pair of glasses or spectacles. Yet, there is no credible[lxii] evidence that people wore glasses in Old Testament times. The idea of a holy prophet of God putting on a pair of spectacles with diamond like seer stones “set in glass”[lxiii] as lenses, first originated with Joseph Smith.

God is speaking?

Some people envision Joseph Smith as a humble, devout, prophet of God, who brought forth divine communications while under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost. But, what if this were not true?[lxiv] Lucy Harris, who was the wife of Martin Harris, claimed that Smith was a “grand imposter.”[lxv]

She went on to say that,

“he [Joseph Smith] had seduced her husband into the belief that he was some great one…”[lxvi]

Smith’s modus operandi[lxvii] had all the markings one would expect[lxviii] from a con man. Therefore, Lucy had reasons to be concerned about Smith’s control over her husband.

So, let’s consider the question:

Was it Lucy Harris who was off-base in her estimation[lxix] of Joseph Smith, or was she right about Smith seducing her husband into believing he was some great one?

One thing is certain:

In the first five sections of the Doctrine & Covenants alone, God supposedly speaking through Joseph Smith, mentions Smith by name 12 times.

Here is one example from D&C 5:

(Verse 1) “Behold, I say unto you, that as my servant Martin Harris has desired a witness at my hand, that you, my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., have got the plates of which you have testified and borne record that you have received of me;”

The obvious question: Who is really speaking here, God through Smith, or Smith pretending to be God?

In verse 1, someone is laying the groundwork to establish that,

“…Joseph Smith, Jun., [has] … got the plates...”

Yet, doesn’t it only make sense that if Smith had the plates, then Martin would not need to rely on faith[lxx] to view[lxxi] them. Neither would God need to threaten Martin Harris with condemnation if he did not say,

(Verse 26) … “I have seen them...”

Also, if Smith had the plates, it sure seems odd that God would pressure Harris to say,

(Verse 26) “…they have been shown unto me by the power of God…”

One may wonder if it was God[lxxii] insisting:

(Verse 27) But if he [Martin] deny this he will break the covenant which he has before covenanted with me, and behold, he is condemned.”

One thing is clear:

Much of what came forth from Smith’s mouth could be construed as putting words in the mouth of a witness, and/or, helping the witness tell a pre-planned story.

If God were speaking through Smith, one would expect God’s words[lxxiii] to resemble accepted scripture; or at the very least, to make sense. Yet, this dialog of God entering into a covenant with Harris about seeing the gold plates makes no sense whatsoever; neither does it sound like something God would say.[lxxiv] This so called 'Revelation' has all the markings of a swindler putting pressure on his mark to testify about something of questionable nature.[lxxv]

Also, it's interesting that out of all the witnesses, perhaps Martin Harris was the one who wanted to see the plates the most; yet, he was counted among the witnesses who had the most trouble seeing them.

For example: Mormon leader, Stephen Burnett, left the LDS Church after hearing,

“…Martin Harris state in public that he never saw the plates with his natural eyes only in vision or imagination, neither [did] Oliver nor David.”[lxxvi]

When Smith came into Martin's world Smith turned it upside down. Martin lost his farm.[lxxvii] He lost his wife. Smith took control of his money.[lxxviii] Eventually, the only thing Martin had left to lose was his testimony. If he had forsaken that, he would have been left with nothing.

Is this why Martin Harris signed Joseph Smith’s prepared statement; known as the “Testimony of Three Witnesses?” For whatever reason, Martin did put his signature on the document; the rest is history.

Historical Difficulties — one long attempt at fraud:

“This, then, is the historical difficulty of the plates. Accounts of hiding the plates, wrapping the plates with cloth, showing the plates and translating from the plates become nothing more than one long attempt at fraud and make everything else Joseph Smith did doubtful. ‘Like a beggar claiming to have a diamond that he allows nobody to see,’ … So in the plates we have joined the two characterizations of Joseph Smith, ‘the fraud and the prophet, with the plates as the hinge between the two.’" (Statements from Richard Bushman - Book of Mormon Archaeological Forum's Conference, Oct. 23, 2010)

Conclusion:

Over the years Joseph Smith’s stories have been re-written to standards which people can, and do, put their faith in. Yet, how many investigators would ask God in prayer about the truthfulness of Smith’s stories if they only had early versions to base their findings upon?

Jesus said,

“If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God…” (John 7:17, KJV)

We can know the truth. Yet, asking God over and over again if a fabricated story is true, with the only acceptable answer being, “Yes,” is not a sound method to find God’s guidance in the matter.

Endnotes:

LDS publication documenting four trusted accounts of Alvin being the right person:

· Chase

· Knight

· Two latter reports

“Willard Chase evidently reported the instructions concerning Alvin correctly. The event was confirmed by Joseph Knight, the LDS convert who supplied Joseph and Oliver with necessities while they translated the Book of Mormon. Brother Knight tells how Joseph first went to the hill but was denied the record because of carelessness: “Joseph says, ‘When can I have it?’ The answer was the 22nd day of September next if you bring the right person with you. Joseph says, ‘Who is the right person?’ The answer was ‘Your oldest brother.’ But before September came his oldest brother died.” — Dean Jessee, “Joseph Knight’s Recollection of Early Mormon History,” BYU Studies, Autumn 1976, p. 31. — Two later reports tell similar stories, basically repeating the Chase affidavit. — Fayette Lapham claimed to give particular words of Joseph Smith, Sr., forty years after conversing with him: “The Mormons,” Historical Magazine 7 (2d ser. 1870): 305–9; also cited in Kirkham, 2:283–391. Here the command to bring Alvin is given at a second visit to the hill, and “during that year … his oldest brother died.” See also the Kelley interviews with Lorenzo Saunders. On 17 September 1884, Lorenzo said to William H. Kelley that the ‘angel’ appeared to Joseph ‘in the woods’ and ‘told him where the plates were and he could take his oldest brother with him in a year from that time and go and get them. But his oldest brother died before the year was out.” (E. L. Kelley Papers, box 1, fd. 7, pp. 9–10, historical archives of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, hereafter cited as RLDS Archives.) On 12 November 1884, Lorenzo said: “he saw the angel and … was notified of these plates … but it was not at that time made known to him, but he must take his older brother and go to the spot and he could obtain them. Before that time his oldest brother died.’” (E. L. Kelley interview with Saunders, E. L. Kelley Papers, box 1, fd., 1884 Nov. and Dec., p. 16, RLDS Archives.) - (Ensign, 1987, August, The Alvin Smith Story: Fact and Fiction, By Richard Lloyd Anderson)

[xlix] Treasure seekers at the time of Joseph Smith “were most often devout Christians who … sensed no sharp division between religion and magic. We know from his dreams how strongly Joseph, Sr., wanted salvation; it is even possible that along with the hope for riches, treasure-seeking was part of his religious quest.” (Richard L. Bushman, "Joseph Smith's Family Background," in The Prophet Joseph: Essays on the Life and Mission of Joseph Smith, ed. Larry C. Porter and Susan Easton Black, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book).

[l] (Moroni as Angel and as Treasure Guardian, Mark Ashurst-McGee, BYU, NY Faculty, p.39., 1999, FARMS – Review, 2006)

[li] “I made an attempt to take them out, [the gold plates] but was forbidden by the messenger, and was again informed that the time for bringing them forth had not yet arrived, neither would it, until four years from that time; but he told me that I should come to that place precisely in one year from that time, and that he would there meet with me, and that I should continue to do so until the time should come for obtaining the plates.” (History of the Church Vol. 1, 1:53)

[lii] (History of the Church Vol. 1 1:53)

[liii] “In the month of June, 1827, Joseph Smith, Sen. related to me the following story: ‘That some years ago, a spirit had appeared to Joseph his son, in a vision, and informed him that in a certain place there was a record on plates of gold, and that he was the person that must obtain them…” (Willard Chase, 1833 affidavit. Joseph Smith’s New York Reputation Reexamined, Rodger I. Anderson, Signature Books, 1990, p. 121)

[liv] (BYU Studies, Joseph Knight’s Recollection of Early Mormon History, Dean Jessee, 1976)

[Las Vegas] “At this, as a natural consequence, he was much alarmed. He kneeled down and asked the Lord why the Record had been taken from him; upon which the angel of the Lord appeared to him, and told him that he had not done as he had been commanded, for in a former revelation he had been commanded not to lay the plates down, or put them for a moment out of his hands, until he got into the house and deposited them in a chest or trunk, having a good lock and key, and, contrary to this, he had laid them down with the view of securing some fancied or imaginary treasure that remained.” (Lucy Smith, Biographical Sketches, p. 347)

[lvi] Ibid (▲ same reference ▲)

[lvii] “At this, as a natural consequence, he was much alarmed. He kneeled down and asked the Lord why the Record had been taken from him; upon which the angel of the Lord appeared to him, and told him that he had not done as he had been commanded, for in a former revelation he had been commanded not to lay the plates down, or put them for a moment out of his hands, until he got into the house and deposited them in a chest or trunk, having a good lock and key, and, contrary to this, he had laid them down with the view of securing some fancied or imaginary treasure that remained.” (Lucy Smith, Biographical Sketches, p. 347)

[lviii] “…soon after he came again and asked my advice what it was best to do about getting a chest made I told him to go to a cabbinet maker who had been making some furniture for my oldest daughter and tell the man we would pay him for making a chest as we did for the other things viz half money and half produce he said he would but did not know where the money would come from for there was not a shilling in the house.” (Lucy Smith, Biographical Sketches, First Draft, 1844/45 p. 379)

[lix] “By aid of the seer stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by Martin, and when finished he would say, ‘Written,’ and if correctly written, that sentence would disappear, and another appear in its place…” (Martin Harris’s “statement to Edward Stevenson,” Millennial Star, February 6, 1882, p.86-87)

[lx] “Latter-day Saints associate the term "Urim and Thummim" with these interpreters. Gardner notes, We all know that Joseph used the Urim and Thummim to translate the Book of Mormon—except he didn't. The Book of Mormon mentions interpreters, but not the Urim and Thummim. It was the Book of Mormon interpreters which were given to Joseph with the plates. When Moroni took back the interpreters after the loss of the 116 manuscript pages, Joseph completed the translation with one of his seer stones. Until after the translation of the Book of Mormon, the Urim and Thummim belonged to the Bible and the Bible only. The Urim and Thummim became part of the story when it was presented within and to the Great Tradition. Eventually, even Joseph Smith used Urim and Thummim indiscriminately as labels generically representing either the Book of Mormon interpreters or the seer stone used during translation. After the loss of the 116 pages, contemporary accounts are very clear that Joseph continued the translation using his seer stone. In later years, the term "Urim and Thummin" was retroactively applied to both the Nephite interpreters and to Joseph's seer stone.” (Joseph Smith/Seer stones/Used for Book of Mormon translation, online article, Fairmormon.org)

[lxi] "These were days never to be forgotten — to sit under the sound of a voice dictated by the inspiration of heaven, awakened the utmost gratitude of this bosom! Day after day I continued, uninterrupted, to write from his mouth, as he translated, with the Urim and Thummim, or, as the Nephites would have said, 'Interpreters,' the history, or record, called The Book of Mormon." (Oliver Cowdery, Messenger and Advocatee, Kirtland, Ohio, 1834, vol. 1, no. 1, p.14)

[lxii] “Around 1284 in Italy, Salvino D'Armate is credited with inventing the first wearable eye glasses.” (The History of Eye Glasses or Spectacles, Mary Bellis, About.com Guide)

[lxiii] “I knew not what he meant but took the article in my hands and upon after examining it <found> * [* with no covering but a silk handkerchief] that it consisted of 2 smott<ooth> 3 cornered diamonds set in glass and the glass was set in silver bows stones conected with each other in the same way that old fashioned spectacles are made.” (Lucy Smith, Biographical Sketches, First Draft, 1844/45 p. 379)

[lxiv] “…she [Lucy Harris] went from place to place, and from house to house, telling her grievances, and declaring that Joseph Smith was practising (sic) a deception upon the people, which was about to strip her of all that she possessed…” (Lucy Smith: Biographical Sketches, 1853 edition, Cory/Pratt, chapter 24)

[lxv] “…did all that lay in her power to injure Joseph in the estimation of his neighbours— telling them that he was a grand impostor, and, that by his specious pretensions, he had seduced her husband into the belief that he [Joseph Smith] was some great one, merely through a design upon her husband’s property…” (Lucy Smith: Biographical Sketches, 1853 edition, Cory/Pratt, chapter 24)

[lxvi] Ibid (▲ same reference ▲)

[lxvii] Doctrine & Covenants 19:

(Introduction): “Revelation given through Joseph Smith, at Manchester, New York, March 1830…. In his history, the Prophet introduced it as “a commandment of God and not of man, to Martin Harris, given by him who is Eternal” (History of the Church, 1:72).

(Verse 10): “For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—“

(Verse 11): “Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.”

(Verse 12): “Endless punishment is God’s punishment.”

(Verse 13): “Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the commandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name;”

(Verse 14): “And it is by my almighty power that you have received them;”

(Verse 15): “Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not”
…
(Verse 26): “And again, I command thee that thou shalt not covet thine own property, but impart it freely to the printing of the Book of Mormon, which contains the truth and the word of God— “

[lxviii] “…in the midst of our afflictions we found a friend in a gentleman by the name of Martin Harris, who came to us and gave me fifty dollars to assist us on our journey.” (History of the Church Vol. 1, 1:61)

[lxix] “Mrs. Harris [Lucy] persisted in her endeavors to expose the fraud…” (Mormonism, AN EXPOSURE OF THE IMPOSITIONS. ADOPTED BY THE SECT CALLED “THE LATTER-DAY SAINTS” – pamphlet by the Rev. F.B. Ashley, UK, 1851, p. 13 - Mormonism, AN EXPOSURE OF THE IMPOSITIONS. ADOPTED BY THE SECT CALLED “THE LATTER-DAY SAINTS” – pamphlet by the Rev. F.B. Ashley, UK, 1851, p. 13)

[lxx] “By faith the Three Witnesses shall see the plates and other sacred items…” (Doctrine & Covenants 5, Introduction)

And:

“…even as my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., has seen them; for it is by my power that he has seen them, and it is because he had faith.” (D&C 17:5)

[lxxi] “And now, except he [Martin] humble himself and acknowledge unto me the things that he has done which are wrong, and covenant with me that he will keep my commandments, and exercise faith in me, behold, I say unto him, he shall have no such views, for I will grant unto him no views of the things of which I have spoken.

And if this be the case, I command you, my servant Joseph, that you shall say unto him, that he shall do no more, nor trouble me any more concerning this matter.” (Doctrine & Covenants 5: 28-29)

[lxxii] “…and these are the words which he shall say.” (D&C 5:26 b)

[lxxiii] “Therefore be diligent; stand by my servant Joseph, faithfully… for the word’s sake.” (D&C 6:9)

[lxxiv] "Mormonism, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith.” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1954, vol. 1, p. 188)

[lxxv] “…he [Martin] now began to requested Joseph to permit him to look upon the plates for he desired a further witness that of their work <actual existance (sic) and> that he might be better able to give a reason for the hope that was within <him> of seeing great things come to pass in the last days—“ (Lucy Smith History: First Draft Biographical Sketches, chapter 25, verse 1, original spelling).

[lxxvi] (Stephen Burnett letter to Lyman E. Johnson dated April 15, 1838 - Typed transcript from Joseph Smith Papers, Letter book, April 20, 1837 - February 9, 1843, microfilm reel 2, pp. 64-66, LDS archives).

[lxxvii] “Was Joseph making a fool of him? Was he the classic dupe, to be cheated out of his money and farm when the fraud was complete? Martin wanted more evidence to set his own mind at ease and to quiet the doubters at home.” (Joseph Smith and the beginnings of Mormonism, Richard L. Bushman, p. 90)

[lxxviii] “And let my servant Martin Harris devote his moneys for the proclaiming of my words, according as my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., shall direct” (D&C 104:26).

[_Simon Belmont]

Hey Rich:

"One thing is clear:

Much of what came forth from Smith’s mouth could be construed as putting words in the mouth of a witness, and/or, helping the witness tell a pre-planned story. "

Gee... that's not a slanted article at all.

The jig is up, Rich. You've been exposed for the anti-Mormon, anti-JW, and anti-SDA that you are.

WWJD?

[_Valorius]

You've been exposed for the anti-Mormon, anti-JW, and anti-SDA that you are.

There you go, bringing in the JW and SDA again. And then if someone refers to them in response, you'll likely repeat yourself: "This is Mormon discussions." Not other religions. Unless you bring the same level of ineffable expertise in JWism and SDAism as you do Mormonism, just stick with Mormonism. :)

[_Valorius]

Rich:

I don't care about your articles. I care about your ability to address my concerns.

Why do you feel like it is your duty to attack other faiths?

Rich:
I care about your articles.
This forum isn't just for Simon to satisfy his need for approval. You don't have to print what he says you "should", and you can print what he says you "should not".

I don't know why he feels like it is his duty to attack you for expressing your honest opinion. Oh, yes I do: it's because it's in opposition to his. You think he'd be grateful, since there must be "opposition in all things". lol

[_rich kelsey]

You've been exposed for the anti-Mormon, anti-JW, and anti-SDA that you are.

There you go, bringing in the JW and SDA again. And then if someone refers to them in response, you'll likely repeat yourself: "This is Mormon discussions." Not other religions. Unless you bring the same level of ineffable expertise in JWism and SDAism as you do Mormonism, just stick with Mormonism. :)

In my article on the Jehovah's Witnesses I explain,

Closing Arguments:

When a judge evaluates a claim in a court of law, he weighs evidence surrounding the claim to see if there are inconsistencies. This last claim by the Jehovah’s Witnesses not only lacks corroborating evidence, the facts of history clearly deny its authenticity. Based upon these findings, why would anyone believe the Watchtower Society’s claim that Jesus picked them as

“God’s only channel for communicating the truth.”

Let’s talk plainly here: The Jehovah’s Witnesses have no exclusive “channel of communication” with God. People don’t need to be held captive by their empty words.

Our God and Father desires to fellowship and communicate with his children through His son Jesus Christ, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The God of the Bible has not limited Himself to speaking only through the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society’s publications and leadership.

In the Book of Revelation Jesus said,

“Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.” (Rev. 3:20, NIV)

What’s available to every man, woman and child is a personal relationship with Jesus, not through an organization, but rather through the spirit.

If you aren’t sure you’ve found this relationship with Jesus Christ, pray this salvation prayer, “Jesus my sins were placed upon you when you died; you were crucified for my iniquity,” as spelled out in the following scripture:

“But he was pierced for our transgressions. He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.” (Isaiah 53:5-6, NIV)

Ask Jesus into your life, believing in his role as your Savior. Then, live for Jesus every day. Eternal life will be your reward!

If explaining to people investigatiing the JW religion that they do not need to trust in the Jehovah's Witnesses religion to find salvation makes me anti-Jehovah's Witness, then I wonder if a professing Mormon may fall into the same boat?

I'm the bad guy? People reading the JW article may see things differently?

Link to JW article: http://richkelsey.org/JW%20ARTICLE.htm

[_Simon Belmont]

If explaining to people investigatiing the JW religion that they do not need to trust in the Jehovah's Witnesses religion to find salvation makes me anti-Jehovah's Witness, then I wonder if a professing Mormon may fall into the same boat?

I'm the bad guy? People reading the JW article may see things differently?

Link to JW article: http://richkelsey.org/JW%20ARTICLE.htm

Yes, Rich, that makes you the bad guy. You believe The millions of Jehova's Witnesses are either idiots, or highly suggestible dupes. Otherwise, why would they believe in their chosen faith?

I'll tell you the answer, Rich... It's because the way you represent other faiths is not fair or balanced. It is slanted and hateful. If the JW faith were as your articles make it out to be, no one would be a member. But as it stands, there are millions of members.

[_Valorius]

You believe The millions of Jehova's Witnesses are either idiots, or highly suggestible dupes. Otherwise, why would they believe in their chosen faith?

.....If the JW faith were as your articles make it out to be, no one would be a member. But as it stands, there are millions of members.

You answered your own question, namely, it is possible that they are "highly suggestible dupes," or the alternative you allow them to be: "idiots". There may be millions of dupes in the world. Certainly, there are many. Not each one of all religions that say they are the "truest" or "only true" religion, can be so. Therefore, some people are mistaken. I prefer the word "mistaken". You prefer "idiots" and "dupes". Either way, they lack perfect knowledge. And either way, people really are gullible. We believe in all sorts of crazy things: war, slavery, geopolitics, conspiracy theories, alien abductions, numerology, predistination and free will, and "true" religions (lots of them). Because there are so many "true" religions, and because there are so many hundreds of millions of people who believe in these various "true" religions, the chances are better than 50-50, more like 99-1, that any given person who believes in a "true" religion, actually believes in one of the other religions, a "not true" one. I like to keep that in mind when I catch myself pontificating about the values I hold and the truths I embrace.

[_rich kelsey]

You believe The millions of Jehova's Witnesses are either idiots, or highly suggestible dupes. Otherwise, why would they believe in their chosen faith?

.....If the JW faith were as your articles make it out to be, no one would be a member. But as it stands, there are millions of members.

Valorius,

Here is my perspective: I was taught to believe in JW doctrine on and off over the course of about two years by two JW ladies during a weekly Bible study. There was a time when I moved out of state for the summer and when I came back we continued on with the lessons.

The Watchtower Society has a very effective teaching program. The teachers follow set instructions. I am not an idiot. Nor am I easily duped. But, I did get duped into believing that the Jehovah’s Witnesses were selling me the truth. And, I bought into it.

One other thing; up to this time nobody had presented a better doctrinal position and I wanted to get right with God. I was searching for answers. I was searching for truth. I was searching for God!

I would prefer to use the word misled to describe how I was brought into the JW faith, and I would also like to use the word deceived to describe why I almost got baptized as a JW. (Can we draw any parallels to other religions?)

I do not think Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons or SDAs are idiots! Every person on this planet deserves a little more dignity than that. Perhaps they have been misled? Or, there could be a number of reasons to be in a particular faith. Perhaps some would like to see their faith from a new perspective. Like I have said before; once someone lets me know they are happy with their religion that is good with me. I have Mormon friends. I treat them kindly and with respect.

Thank you Valorius for your perspective, and hey, I just had a silver bullet cast out of sterling silver. 50 caliber no doubt! You think that might interest The Lone Ranger? A minister friend has a small foundry in his shop. I always wanted a silver bullet! And, it fits in my pistol. I bet you can’t guess the caliber?

[_Simon Belmont]

Here is my perspective: I was taught to believe in JW doctrine on and off over the course of about two years by two JW ladies during a weekly Bible study. There was a time when I moved out of state for the summer and when I came back we continued on with the lessons.

The Watchtower Society has a very effective teaching program. The teachers follow set instructions. I am not an idiot. Nor am I easily duped. But, I did get duped into believing that the Jehovah’s Witnesses were selling me the truth. And, I bought into it.

Well how do you know it isn't, Rich? Are you calling the millions of members of the JW faith idiots or dupes? What makes you the only one who knows The Truth? Are you really that arrogant?

I do not think Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons or SDAs are idiots! Every person on this planet deserves a little more dignity than that. Perhaps they have been misled? Or, there could be a number of reasons to be in a particular faith.

Yeah, it must be some excuse, right Rich? It couldn't be that they have the truth or part of it. No, only Rich knows the truth.

Perhaps some would like to see their faith from a new perspective. Like I have said before; once someone lets me know they are happy with their religion that is good with me. I have Mormon friends. I treat them kindly and with respect.

And you stab them in the back on the Internet.

[_rich kelsey]

Thank you Valorius for your perspective, and hey, I just had a silver bullet cast out of sterling silver. 50 caliber no doubt! You think that might interest The Lone Ranger? A minister friend has a small foundry in his shop. I always wanted a silver bullet! And, it fits in my pistol. I bet you can’t guess the caliber?

The casting residue from Silver Bullet looks like it could be the remains of a Nephite Sword.