The Great Martin Harris Seer Stone Swap

[_thews]

This analogy is ridiculous. First we have Joe Smith using his peepstone to find buried treasures and "see" the evil treasure guardians so he could perform his occult magic to appease them (before the Book of Mormon). Then God chooses Joe Smith to unlock the secrets of the gold plates, and with the plates he gives him the Nephite spectacles. But when evil doers supposedly stole the lost pages, God punishes Joe Smith by taking the Nephite spectacles back, forcing Joe to use his occult magic rocks placed in hat... just as he did when he was a glass-looker (before the Book of Mormon). Now, when Martin Harris attempts to fool Joe Smith with a switcheroo of the rock, it was God who stepped in to teach Harris a lesson? You actually believe this is critical thought based on sound logic, which I find tragically sad.

Your contentious pose bores me, to be honest. If I was speaking to a child I might feel a little more likely to respond with patience.

The only thing you knocked out of the park was common sense.

Seriously, you seem to have reached the maturity level of an 11 year and decided that was enough.

I realize you don't like to answer questions Stem (you do respond to them), by what power did Joseph Smith use to find the pin for Martin Harris using his seer stone and old white hat? Was it done by using the power of God?

I'm surprised you don't realize that its not that people don't like to answer your questions as much as it is people just plain don't care for your contentious, arrogant style. I'm here to discuss things with people who intend to teach me more about life, not to quibble about stupid little jabs, while the other is doing nothing but trying to make me feel small because I'm Mormon. Sorry dude. I get why you want the "attack the person" thing to stick in the terrestrial forum now. Its your MO. I'll pray in hopes you get that dark spot out of your heart. Sound good?

Wow Stem... just Wow! Look at the effort you put into explaining all the reasons you can't answer a simple question (instead of just answering it). I see you've adopted the old Simon Belmont ploy of shooting the messenger. First you claim you don't believe in Joseph Smith's doctrine requiring polygamy as an everlasting covenant, you flee from answering who said the words regarding the descendant of Ham, followed by refusing to admit Joseph Smith was lying about polygamy, and now this... are the questions just too hard to answer? Is voicing an honest opinion regarding by what power did Joseph Smith use to find the lost pin of Martin Harris with his seer stone and old white hat too hard? Does it fringe on your cognitive dissonance that maybe, just maybe, all the things you were told about Joseph Smith were wrong?

You can run Stem, but you can't hide. Once you dipped your toes in the pool of truth Plato's cave opened up and you were thrust into the light. Stick with your dancing shadows for as long as you can take it, but the truth is Joseph Smith was into occult magic (before the Book of Mormon) when he learned the tricks from Luman Walter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luman_Walter . The old magic rock-in-hat trick is evidenced in the question you can't answer, but you know what the question is Stem. Don't worry, I've got your back. Once you decide to acknowledge the truth I'll be here for you.

[_apostate]

I'm new at this, forgive me if I don't do exactly rght. It's been many years since I was a convert-apostate, back then the big news was David O. McKay talking with Jesus Christ in the SLC Temple, the seer stones were not talked about much, nor for that matter were the urim and thummim. You just believed it and that was that.

But one thing is interesting to me. When I visited SLC in the mid 90's and the Mormon sites in MO and Il in the late 90's the picture in the visitors centers showing Joseph Smith tanslating the Book of Mormon show only a curtain betwee him and his secy. I asked one of the guides at the SLC visitors center where the U&T were, as I wasn't that familiar with the seer stones and he got real excited and told me he didn't know, buy he would ask. He was gone a while and when he returned he told me that by this time in the translating Joseph Smith had become so familiar with the characters he no longer needed any instruments to help him translate. Imagine that!! Perhaps they have changed the picture since then, but I do believe that either instrument would have been hard to depict.

[_LDS truthseeker]

Joseph noticed that the stone was different and used this as an opportunity to prove to Martin that he was indeed a seer. Take in mind that Joseph carried this stone with him everywhere and gazed at it all the time so he would have very likely been able to immediately tell that Martin had switched the stone.

How likely is it that Martin could quickly find a stone that was lying around that matched the same size, color and shape almost exactly of the one Joseph had? To Martin they would have looked similar enough but Joseph would have been able to tell the difference as he would stare at the stone for hours at a time. Also, it's not like Joseph lived in a rock quarry with thousands of odd-shaped stones lying around.

[_stemelbow]

You can run Stem, but you can't hide.

Actually the opposite is probably true. I can't really run from it, but I can go into hiding no prob.

Anyway, take care Thews. come back to me when you're willing to actually discuss things civilly.

[_stemelbow]

Take in mind that Joseph carried this stone with him everywhere and gazed at it all the time so he would have very likely been able to immediately tell that Martin had switched the stone.

CFR please. I'm sincerely interested where that comes from, particularly the italicized and even moreso bolded claims.

[_LDS truthseeker]

Take in mind that Joseph carried this stone with him everywhere and gazed at it all the time so he would have very likely been able to immediately tell that Martin had switched the stone.

CFR please. I'm sincerely interested where that comes from, particularly the italicized and even moreso bolded claims.

Perhaps that should say something more to the effect that Joseph was known to carry his stone with him and I would assume he knew what it looked like - especially if he stared at it hours at a time when translating.

This quote shows he looked at the stone in the hat for hours at a time:

"In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us." Emma Smith
http://www.irr.org/mit/divination.html


Here's one account that shows that Joseph just happened to have the stone handy in his pocket when ole Martin lost a pin and needed some seering help:

I was at the house of his father in Manchester, two miles south of Palmyra village, and was picking my teeth with a pin while sitting on the bars. The pin caught in my teeth, and dropped from my fingers into shavings and straw. I jumped from the bars and looked for it. Joseph and Northrop Sweet also did the same. We could not find it. I then took Joseph on surprise, and said to him--I said, "Take your stone," I had never seen it, and did not know that he had it with him. He had it in his pocket. He took it [out] and placed it in his hat--the old white hat--and placed his face in his hat. I watched him closely to see that he did not look [to] one side; he reached out his hand beyond me on the right, and moved a little stick, and there I saw the pin, which he picked up and gave to me. I know he did not look out of the hat until after he had picked up the pin.
Reference:http://www.xmission.com/~research/about/docum4.htm

[_stemelbow]

Perhaps that should say something more to the effect that Joseph was known to carry his stone with him and I would assume he knew what it looked like - especially if he stared at it hours at a time when translating.

This quote shows he looked at the stone in the hat for hours at a time:

"In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us." Emma Smith
http://www.irr.org/mit/divination.html


Here's one account that shows that Joseph just happened to have the stone handy in his pocket when ole Martin lost a pin and needed some seering help:

I was at the house of his father in Manchester, two miles south of Palmyra village, and was picking my teeth with a pin while sitting on the bars. The pin caught in my teeth, and dropped from my fingers into shavings and straw. I jumped from the bars and looked for it. Joseph and Northrop Sweet also did the same. We could not find it. I then took Joseph on surprise, and said to him--I said, "Take your stone," I had never seen it, and did not know that he had it with him. He had it in his pocket. He took it [out] and placed it in his hat--the old white hat--and placed his face in his hat. I watched him closely to see that he did not look [to] one side; he reached out his hand beyond me on the right, and moved a little stick, and there I saw the pin, which he picked up and gave to me. I know he did not look out of the hat until after he had picked up the pin.
Reference:http://www.xmission.com/~research/about/docum4.htm

Ahh...shucks I've been disappointed again. But yep, that white hat and finding a pin is a silly story alright.

[_thews]

You can run Stem, but you can't hide.

Actually the opposite is probably true. I can't really run from it, but I can go into hiding no prob.

Anyway, take care Thews. come back to me when you're willing to actually discuss things civilly.

Actually Stem, come back to me when you're willing to discuss things without the same tired persecution complex, as you've played that card so many times you don't realize that it's the 2 of spades and there is no qualifying low.

[_stemelbow]

Actually Stem, come back to me when you're willing to discuss things without the same tired persecution complex, as you've played that card so many times you don't realize that it's the 2 of spades and there is no qualifying low.

Dangit...you win again, Thews. I now submit to your demands. Please advise.