Mormons are ashamed of their own beliefs

[_Molok]

Well, let's start with "blacks being evil in the pre-existence."

No doubt that was taught in your "seminary classes;" it just wasn't ever taught in any actual LDS seminary classes.

It is a lie. It represents no LDS doctrine. It was never taught by the Church, at any time, ever.
********************************

Well poran, you were not in every seminary class or sunday school or priesthood class, were you?

This was taught in Seminary in Panguich, Utah as well as in Sunday School and Priesthood. Came up often with the tired old "BYU just signed a black athlete... a javelin catcher". That one was repeated over & over, even in the BYU dorms both before and after my mission. That attitude was in many of the missionaries who would say 'stay out of niggertown' when some of us would drive toward the lower end of a couple of the cities in our Mission. It was the attitude of one Mission President and some General Authorities.
(see Alvin R Dyer : Why is it that you are white and not colored? Have you ever asked yourself that question? Who had anything to do with your being born into the Church and not born a Chinese or a Hindu, or a Negro? Is God such an unjust person that He would make you white and free and make a Negro CURSED under the CURSING OF CAIN that he sould not hold the Priesthood of God?...“)

Yes, Morons are ashamed and THEY SHOULD BE!

Even if the church was as racist as you claim, White House the hell would you care, mr. Remember pearl harbor, nail a jap? You are one hypocritical, racist piece of crap, do you know that??

[_Pahoran]

I think some Mormons are extremely sensitive about discussing the more "esoteric" beliefs without a ton of context and rationalizing. That's why you get the "yellow journalism" accusation when people are at all blunt in their description of some doctrines.

I think some Mormons are aware that anti-Mormons use the "sound bite" method of making our beliefs look ridiculous by expressing them in (usually inaccurate) bumper-sticker phrases. This technique is "yellow journalism." And while nothing needs any "rationalizing," it does need context to give it meaning. The haters know this perfectly well, which is why they delight in presenting such things without context.

I think we can all admit that there are quite a few Mormon beliefs that most people would find at least slightly odd.

I think we can all agree that every belief system has beliefs that people outside of the paradigm "would find at least slightly odd."

That's why it takes absolutely no talent or imagination at all to ridicule such beliefs. Which is why anti-Mormons can do it.

Regards,
Pahoran

[_Runtu]

I think some Mormons are aware that anti-Mormons use the "sound bite" method of making our beliefs look ridiculous by expressing them in (usually inaccurate) bumper-sticker phrases. This technique is "yellow journalism." And while nothing needs any "rationalizing," it does need context to give it meaning. The haters know this perfectly well, which is why they delight in presenting such things without context.

I guess there are more than a few things in Mormonism that will sound odd, no matter how much context is given.

I think we can all agree that every belief system has beliefs that people outside of the paradigm "would find at least slightly odd."

That's why it takes absolutely no talent or imagination at all to ridicule such beliefs. Which is why anti-Mormons can do it.

Regards,
Pahoran

True. I'm just saying that in our JudeoChristian context, Mormon beliefs are a bit out there. Not that it's a bad thing.

[_Pahoran]

Tax records for Packer, Salt Lake county. Million dollar estate

What that actually means is: Fifty years ago or more, Elder Packer (Latter-day Saints don't just call him "Packer," FYI) bought a modest home on the outskirts of town. He has since paid off his mortgage. In the meantime, the city has grown and real estate values have gone up. Hence his "million dollar estate."

all paid for with tithing funds, since he hasn't worked at a real job since 1961.

GONG!

I realise facts don't bear any relationship to your assumptions, but here is what President Hinckley said about that:

I should like to add, parenthetically for your information, that the living allowances given the General Authorities, which are very modest in comparison with executive compensation in industry and the professions, come from this business income and not from the tithing of the people.

You can read that for yourself in the November 1985 Ensign.

And yes, my bishop knows of my views. He finds value in keeping those who question close and loving us.

I'm prepared to be taught my duty by a loving bishop. Ask him to email me and teach me the principles by which he chooses to grant a Temple Recommend to someone who does not believe in the Restoration, does not sustain the leaders of the Church, and publicly accuses them of enriching themselves from "the tithing trough." Something must be wrong with my understanding of the doctrine.

I look forward to hearing from him on this matter.

Regards,
Pahoran

[_MrStakhanovite]

That's why it takes absolutely no talent or imagination at all to ridicule such beliefs. Which is why anti-Mormons can do it.

Everything you say in defense of the Church, a million broken records have already said. You are always the first person to rush to the victim line and fight your way to the front. I don’t know what it is, but the Mormon legal cum Apologist dilettantes make for some of the most boring and two dimensional personalities to date. It’s like Lee Strobel with a bad attitude and a few extra chromosomes.

[_Runtu]

What that actually means is: Fifty years ago or more, Elder Packer (Latter-day Saints don't just call him "Packer," FYI) bought a modest home on the outskirts of town. He has since paid off his mortgage. In the meantime, the city has grown and real estate values have gone up. Hence his "million dollar estate."

There are no modest homes where President Packer (he's not "Elder" anymore, you know) built his home. It's a rather exclusive piece of property behind Hogle Zoo in a secluded canyon. Also, even at today's real-estate prices, modest homes in Utah are nowhere near the value of his home. Mind you, I don't have a problem with his having a nice house in an exclusive part of town, but it's not accurate to say he has a modest home. President Kimball's home on Laird Avenue was modest. President Packer's is not.

[_Simon Belmont]

Everything you say in defense of the Church, a million broken records have already said.

That's exactly how I feel with critics.

Same old, same old debunked arguments.

Never anything new.

[_Runtu]

That's exactly how I feel with critics.

Same old, same old debunked arguments.

Never anything new.

Damn, I wish they'd all been debunked. Would make life a bit easier for my family, you know.

[_Simon Belmont]

Damn, I wish they'd all been debunked. Would make life a bit easier for my family, you know.

They have.

www.fairlds.org
maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu

[Anonymous]

What that actually means is: Fifty years ago or more, Elder Packer (Latter-day Saints don't just call him "Packer," FYI) bought a modest home on the outskirts of town. He has since paid off his mortgage. In the meantime, the city has grown and real estate values have gone up. Hence his "million dollar estate."

There are no modest homes where President Packer (he's not "Elder" anymore, you know) built his home. It's a rather exclusive piece of property behind Hogle Zoo in a secluded canyon. Also, even at today's real-estate prices, modest homes in Utah are nowhere near the value of his home. Mind you, I don't have a problem with his having a nice house in an exclusive part of town, but it's not accurate to say he has a modest home. President Kimball's home on Laird Avenue was modest. President Packer's is not.

I have to agree with runtu, Pahoran, and I'm old enough to know what that area was like years ago when he would have moved there. And like runtu, I have no problem with him having a nice house; that has nothing to do with the truth claims of Mormonism, nor is it out of line with Mormon history or culture.

I do wonder, however, if he still lives there or somewhere else? I've seen a couple of houses listed online as his.