Why you leave is no one else's business

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_Runtu
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Re: Why you leave is no one else's business

Post by _Runtu »

Just had lunch with a coworker, who asked me about my issues with the church. This was one of those situations when I figured that there were some possible good things that could come of it. So, I talked fairly bluntly with him, and to my surprise, he said he was aware of the same issues and was troubled by them. He said that he chooses to have faith in God and in the church, but he doesn't feel bound to justify things he knows aren't right or true. I told him I couldn't fault him for that, as it works him; he responded that he didn't fault me for what I've decided, either.

It was a really nice lunch, and the Szechuan pork was really good.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Pahoran
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Re: Why you leave is no one else's business

Post by _Pahoran »

Runtu wrote:Why you leave is no one else's business

So it is, and that's usually the way it stays until the exmo starts trying to dine out on his "victim" status. And then all bets are off.

MCB wrote:Interesting. I could re-title my book "Why I am not a Mormon." It would boil down to 1. I think that Mormons who dislike me because of my ancestry are totally bizarre. (My g-g-grandfather marched on the Carthage Jail on June 27, 1844.)

I think the claim that Mormons dislike you because of your long-dead ancestor is bizarre.

Which is to say, I flatly disbelieve you. I think you are making that claim because you think it works for you, not because there is any truth to it.

The only person I've ever met in my life who behaves like that is someone I've never really met: a rabid, malicious hater who infests this board and calls Latter-day Saints "Morons," calls the Church of Jesus Christ "l-dsinc" and other such idiotic insults. He's an ex-Mormon (of course). Latter-day Saints don't behave like that.

MCB wrote:2. Read the Book of Mormon and Geoffrey of Monmouth and Maccabees, and find the parallels.

And the unparallels.

MCB wrote:3. The Catholic God is much better than the Mormon god.

Is that because the "Catholic God" incinerates the disobedient and the Mormon God doesn't?

Or because the Catholic God's followers feel smugly entitled to make gratuitous insults like using a lower-case "g" when talking about someone else's belief in God?

That's your idea of "better," is it?

Regards,
Pahoran
_Runtu
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Re: Why you leave is no one else's business

Post by _Runtu »

Pahoran wrote:So it is, and that's usually the way it stays until the exmo starts trying to dine out on his "victim" status. And then all bets are off.


I think that's a rather harsh approach, Pah. People naturally want to be understood, especially when they know they are disappointing their friends and families. One need not play the victim to get some nasty responses from church members. You've never reserved your venom just for those who claim victim status, have you?

The problem I see is that too many of us (myself included) forget that what we're dealing with isn't us vs. them, victim vs. abuser, and truth vs. error, but predictable human response to loss and change. When we treat each other as people and act with love, kindness, and a genuine desire to help, things go much better.
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Pahoran
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Re: Why you leave is no one else's business

Post by _Pahoran »

Runtu wrote:
Pahoran wrote:So it is, and that's usually the way it stays until the exmo starts trying to dine out on his "victim" status. And then all bets are off.

I think that's a rather harsh approach, Pah. People naturally want to be understood, especially when they know they are disappointing their friends and families. One need not play the victim to get some nasty responses from church members. You've never reserved your venom just for those who claim victim status, have you?

The problem I see is that too many of us (myself included) forget that what we're dealing with isn't us vs. them, victim vs. abuser, and truth vs. error, but predictable human response to loss and change. When we treat each other as people and act with love, kindness, and a genuine desire to help, things go much better.

What I'm saying, Runtu, is that "Why you leave is no one else's business" works for me, just as long as you keep it that way.

And you keep it that way by not bringing it up.

You cannot expect, as many exmo's seem to expect, to introduce your personal experience as if it were valid evidence about the Church of Jesus Christ without subjecting your claims to any scrutiny. Exmo's frequently act as if their exit stories are damning of the Church, but at the same time utterly sacrosanct; and if anyone dares to question them, then what we get is: "How DARE you!!! You cruel, unfeeling Mormon you!!!!"

And without raking over old grievances: you and I both know how that works, don't we, Runtu?

Regards,
Pahoran
_Runtu
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Re: Why you leave is no one else's business

Post by _Runtu »

Pahoran wrote:What I'm saying, Runtu, is that "Why you leave is no one else's business" works for me, just as long as you keep it that way.

And you keep it that way by not bringing it up.


As I said, I do not bring it up. The whole point of this thread is that, when people ask me, I do not feel obligated to tell them. No one is talking about us poor victims pushing our beliefs on others.

I share my thoughts here because, you know, that's what forums like this are for. I'd share my thoughts on MDD if they let me, but they don't, so I don't bother them.

You cannot expect, as many exmo's seem to expect, to introduce your personal experience as if it were valid evidence about the Church of Jesus Christ without subjecting your claims to any scrutiny. Exmo's frequently act as if their exit stories are damning of the Church, but at the same time utterly sacrosanct; and if anyone dares to question them, then what we get is: "How DARE you!!! You cruel, unfeeling Mormon you!!!!"


I have no problem with people criticizing my reasons for leaving. It used to really bother me that people attacked my motives, but then I can't help what people think, so I don't let it bother me. No matter what I do or say, Will is going to call me an insincere apostate evangelist, and bcspace is going to call me a lying anti-Mormon. I can live with that because I know it's not the truth. As for my personal experience, it's only "valid evidence" about my experience with the church. Your experience is different, as is everyone's.

And without raking over old grievances: you and I both know how that works, don't we, Runtu?

Regards,
Pahoran


I have no desire to pick at old scabs, as I think you and I understand how that mess came about. We both misread the situation.

As for sharing my thoughts about the church, I have every right to do so, and you have every right to scrutinize what I say. I've never suggested otherwise. I take issue with those who think that I should remaind completely silent.
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_zeezrom
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Re: Why you leave is no one else's business

Post by _zeezrom »

Pahoran,

I would LOVE it if people would question my beliefs. It shows they have interest in me, as a person. So far, people really only seem to be interested in what they currently believe.
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

The Holy Sacrament.
_Runtu
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Re: Why you leave is no one else's business

Post by _Runtu »

zeezrom wrote:Pahoran,

I would LOVE it if people would question my beliefs. It shows they have interest in me, as a person. So far, people really only seem to be interested in what they currently believe.


You know, one thing I've always wished someone would ask about is why the things that trouble us are so troubling. It's always "you're wrong" or "FAIR already debunked that." But no one ever asks, "Why does that bother you?" The closest I've heard to that is when people say, "Well, that doesn't bother me, so it shouldn't bother you."

I think you've hit on something important. Most of the time people aren't interested in what we think or believe. They want to talk about what they believe and why it is right. That's one of the reasons it's such a dangerous minefield to talk about your unbelief with church members.

It's pretty easy to be charitable and kind to people who believe, and I respect those who can be respectful and kind in return. I wish there were more of them.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Doctor Scratch
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Re: Why you leave is no one else's business

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Scottie wrote:Well we know that trying to be lighthearted about "the good ol' days of MDB", where DCP and Scratch battled it out is a no go. :)


Speak for yourself, my friend. I continue to regard the "battle" with a lighthearted sense of jocular bonhomie. The grimly humorless of MDB are more than welcome to buy into Dr. Peterson's self-crafted Wet Blanket Party, but I'll have none of it. Tally ho! I say. Tally ho!
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_Pahoran
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Re: Why you leave is no one else's business

Post by _Pahoran »

Doctor Scratch wrote:
Scottie wrote:Well we know that trying to be lighthearted about "the good ol' days of MDB", where DCP and Scratch battled it out is a no go. :)

Speak for yourself, my friend. I continue to regard the "battle" with a lighthearted sense of jocular bonhomie. The grimly humorless of MDB are more than welcome to buy into Dr. Peterson's self-crafted Wet Blanket Party, but I'll have none of it. Tally ho! I say. Tally ho!

Of course. Your obsessive stalking of DCP, and your utterly malicious and malevolent attacks upon his in real life character and reputation are just a good-humoured joke; after all, it's not hurting you, so why should anyone else care?

Just as long as the playing field remains tilted in your favour. If it was level, you'd disappear so fast we wouldn't even see your dust.

And you know that's true, don't you?

Regards,
Pahoran
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Why you leave is no one else's business

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Pahoran wrote:Of course. Your obsessive stalking of DCP, and your utterly malicious and malevolent attacks upon his in real life character and reputation are just a good-humoured joke; after all, it's not hurting you, so why should anyone else care?

Just as long as the playing field remains tilted in your favour. If it was level, you'd disappear so fast we wouldn't even see your dust.

And you know that's true, don't you?

Regards,
Pahoran


Image

Very Respectfully,

Doctor Cameron, North Carolina for Me
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
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