Testing Stuff

[_Scottie]

Scottie's consecrated oil example is a good one, too.

Just to clarify, that was Analytics example, not mine.

[_Morley]

Stem, if you perform carbon dating tests and I perform carbon dating tests, we will both receive the same results. If you pray for a testimony and I pray for a testimony, there is a good chance we will receive different result. The spiritual is not at all like the scientific.

You and I aren't using the same tools when we pray. but you are I can perform carbon dating by using the same tools. Its not the best comparison on those grounds. Fortunately, I can use certain tools one time and later use those same tools and get the same exact results in spiritual expereinces. So, it tests pretty good for me.

What is different about the tools that you and I are using?

[_NorthboundZax]

Ack! Stem, you are really blowing through the power of science implying things like carbon-dating is just a fun tool that may or may not be correct. There are ways of verifying its validity. Take tree-rings, for instance. Tree rings are an independent way of dating. That the two converge says a lot for the veracity of carbon-dating.

I didn't imply what you think I implied, in fact I explicitly stated the opposite of what you think I implied.

ok, but when you said:

We can't go back in time to verify we got the dating right. That is the purpose of my example.

it sure sounded to me like you are questioning the veracity of carbon-dating. If you really meant that carbon-dating gives reliable results that have been verified against other dating measures, then my apologies for misunderstanding.

For one, not all uses of oil in blessings results in healings and don't necessarily assume to. Also, the other factors do weigh heavily on the blessing. I just don't think it would work. But if he and you feel it would work as a good test, be my guest.

Such a test would be much more informative than you are giving it credit for. To whatever degree consecrated oil helps in healing, it can be measured with a straightforward methodology as outlined by Analytics (thanks Scottie). It is a similar methodology to determining if a drug helps healing. A double-blind test of consecrated oil (like any other purported healing substance) will show a result along the lines of 1) always works, 2) sometimes works (your supposition, I think), or 3) produces no measurable effect meaning that its efficacy must be smaller than could be measured by the designed experiment. In short, if you think consecrated oil helps healing, it can be tested - even at a "sometimes works" level. Shrugging your shoulders that it sometimes doesn't work so the experiment wouldn't tell us anything is ignoring the power of scientific methodology

People tell me I'm wrong and my spiritual experience is unverifiable. I disagree. I want to see why they feel the need to tell me that.

I think where the divergence lies is in what we are calling verifiable. I think most people on this thread take the view that verifiability means that others would consistently get a similar answer for a seemingly objective question. How would you define verifiability?

[_Buffalo]

Stem, if you perform carbon dating tests and I perform carbon dating tests, we will both receive the same results. If you pray for a testimony and I pray for a testimony, there is a good chance we will receive different result. The spiritual is not at all like the scientific.

You and I aren't using the same tools when we pray. but you are I can perform carbon dating by using the same tools. Its not the best comparison on those grounds. Fortunately, I can use certain tools one time and later use those same tools and get the same exact results in spiritual expereinces. So, it tests pretty good for me.

You mean you have different brains? Yes. Have you considered that your different brains are the source of different answers?

[_stemelbow]

What you do with criticism is your business and does not affect the validity of the criticism. If your spiritual experiences override valid criticism, that's up to you. Whether I choose to accept carbon dating says nothing about the validity of carbon dating. I think you get into trouble when you equate subjective internal experience with repeatable and verifiable experiments.

I know you think I'm in trouble for it, but I can't help that its all worked out so well for me. What you call "subjective internal experience" is only that to you, but not necessarily that to me and many millions of others. Sure we can't show you much if anything pertaining to our experience, but I don't see why it is assumed it should be able to be shown to you.

So, just out of curiosity, how would you determine that the Laffertys spiritual experience is not as valid and sure as your spiritual experience?

I know very little of the Lafferty's other than they shot people and were arrested and, it seems, they said God told them to do it. I have to go with assumption on this front. God wouldn't do that. I'm comfortable on that. I don't mean to say God can't somehow let me know that He had no business in their affairs, but since I haven't even taken it seriously I haven't really taken it up as a query appealing for a response.

[_stemelbow]

What is different about the tools that you and I are using?

Its an assumption on my part. I assume you are using different tools because you don't come up with the same results.

[_harmony]

So, just out of curiosity, how would you determine that the Laffertys spiritual experience is not as valid and sure as your spiritual experience?

I know very little of the Lafferty's other than they shot people and were arrested and, it seems, they said God told them to do it. I have to go with assumption on this front. God wouldn't do that. I'm comfortable on that. I don't mean to say God can't somehow let me know that He had no business in their affairs, but since I haven't even taken it seriously I haven't really taken it up as a query appealing for a response.

And yet you accept without question the idea that God told Nephi to kill Laban?

[_stemelbow]

And yet you accept without question the idea that God told Nephi to kill Laban?

hostility aside, I have not said anything about this. But rest assured, no. I do not.

[_Morley]

What is different about the tools that you and I are using?

Its an assumption on my part. I assume you are using different tools because you don't come up with the same results.

I'm assuming that, from your point of view, you get the truth and I get, um, less than the truth.

[_stemelbow]

I'm assuming that, from your point of view, you get the truth and I get, um, less than the truth.

Not necessarily, Morley.