Proof The Book of Mormon is fraudulent...?

[_Buffalo]

I'm saying this one issue is enough to prove the Book of Mormon fraudulent.

As I said, I disagree with you. It seems we're at an impasse. Time to agree to disagree. Of course, I also don't doubt that we each are understanding what it means to prove something differently, but that's the heart of our disagreement, I guess. I'm not too eager to quibble about what it means.

All the evidence on this issue is in favor of anachronism. Yes or no?

[_Willy Law]

Besides the reference to Cyrus, what else places the last part of Isaiah after 600BC?

This new study could have been a huge testimony builder had Joseph just stopped at Chapter 33.

[_stemelbow]

All the evidence on this issue is in favor of anachronism. Yes or no?

On some of these things, and this is one of them, I have to go with the majority. It seems the majority of scholars have concluded that Duetero Isaiah was later in time than Isaiah lived, and later than Lehi's time in Jerusalem. I don't know if that means all the evidence. I'm not as privy to all the evidence as these scholars are.

[_Chap]

Besides the reference to Cyrus, what else places the last part of Isaiah after 600BC?

This is one of those cases where Wikipedia gives a good summary, of which this is part:

Jewish and Christian tradition held that the entire book is by the 8th century BCE prophet Isaiah, but scholars have held since the late 19th century that it cannot be by a single author.[7]:p.1 The observations which have led to this conclusion are as follows:[8]

Prophecies → Passages of Isaiah 40-66 refer to events that did not occur in Isaiah's own lifetime, such as the rise of Babylon as the world power, the destruction of Jerusalem, and the rise of Cyrus the Great. (R. N. Whybray notes that Deutero-Isaiah's prediction that Cyrus would destroy Babylon - in fact he made it more splendid than ever - further pinpoints the time in which the author wrote.)[9]
Anonymity → Isaiah’s name suddenly stops being used after chapter 39.
Style → There is a sudden change in style and theology after chapter 40;[10] numerous key words and phrases found in one section are not found in the other.[11]
Historical Situation → The historical situation goes through three stages: in chapters 1-39 the prophet speaks of a judgment which will befall the wicked Israelites; in chapters 40-55 the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple (587 BCE) is treated as an accomplished fact and the fall of Babylon as an imminent threat; and in chapters 56-66 the fall of Babylon is already in the past.[11]

Scholars therefore divide the book into three parts:[12]

Chapters 1 to 39 (First Isaiah, Proto-Isaiah or Original Isaiah): the work of the original prophet Isaiah, who worked in Jerusalem between 740 and 687 BCE.[13]
Chapters 40 to 55 (Second Isaiah or Deutero-Isaiah): by an anonymous author who lived in Babylon near the end of the Babylonian captivity.[12]:418
Chapters 56 to 66 (Third Isaiah or Trito-Isaiah): the work of anonymous disciples committed to continuing Isaiah's work in the years immediately after the return from Babylon.[12]:444 This section includes visions of new heavens and new earth.[13] (Other scholars suggest that chapters 55-66 were written by Deutero-Isaiah after the fall of Babylon.)[5]:p. 561

This implied sequence of pre-exilic, exilic and post-exilic material is somewhat misleading, as significant editing has clearly taken place in all three parts.[14]:p.183 There is some uncertainty as to how Deutero-Isaiah and Trito-Isaiah came to be attached to the original Isaiah: the two competing theories are either that Deutero-Isaiah was written as a continuation of Proto-Isaiah, or that it was written separately and became attached to the famous Isaiah later.[15]

As you can see, it is not just that people who don't believe in prophecy believe in at least two Isaiahs because they do not believe that a single Isaiah could not have foretold the future in detail. There are also significant differences in the style and content of the later parts of the text - including the fact that Isaiah's name suddenly stops being used. If the whole book was simply written by the man called Isaiah there should be no such discontinuity.

[_Buffalo]

Besides the reference to Cyrus, what else places the last part of Isaiah after 600BC?

This new study could have been a huge testimony builder had Joseph just stopped at Chapter 33.

The writing style marks it as a composition by a different author. The reference to Cyrus and the ongoing themes about the Babylonian captivity tells us approximately when it was written.

Another indicator is the introduction of strict monotheism - this is a theological innovation that you don't find before the exile.

The parts quoted in the Book of Mormon are from the "suffering servant" theme. Christians have long interpreted these passages as a prophesy of Jesus, but they're not messianic. They're referring to Israel's tribulations under Babylonian captivity.

[_Buffalo]

All the evidence on this issue is in favor of anachronism. Yes or no?

On some of these things, and this is one of them, I have to go with the majority. It seems the majority of scholars have concluded that Duetero Isaiah was later in time than Isaiah lived, and later than Lehi's time in Jerusalem. I don't know if that means all the evidence. I'm not as privy to all the evidence as these scholars are.

You'll find that certain conservative Christian divinity school grads reject the theory - just as some reject, say, evolution. But no serious scholar disputes it.

[_Themis]

It is quite possible that the Brass plates included much of the information in Duetero Isaiah and we not be able to detect it all. If Isaiah's previous writings were supplanted by an edited version known to us as Duetero Isaiah, then how would we know?

Well for one the Book of Mormon copies Isaiah word for word, when it shouldn't. Who is being lazy, Joseph or God, and if Joseph why would he need to or how would he know where to copy and not copy from the Bible. This issue of different authors is very bad for the Book of Mormon, but certainly not the only one.

You bring up the brass plates, which brings up an issue I think is very deadly to Book of Mormon truth cliams that is mostly ignored by both sides. How much brass would it take to write down that much of the olt testement. It almost certainly would have been written in hebrew, and I am not aware that they could write significantly less then english to convey information. It would be interesting for someone to do some research on this.

[_Chap]

You bring up the brass plates, which brings up an issue I think is very deadly to Book of Mormon truth cliams that is mostly ignored by both sides. How much brass would it take to write down that much of the olt testement. It almost certainly would have been written in hebrew, and I am not aware that they could write significantly less then english to convey information. It would be interesting for someone to do some research on this.

Here is the beginning of Isaiah in Hebrew and in English - the Hebrew is somewhat more succinct, in some cases being only 50% of the English, sometimes nearer to 75%. That would still take a heck of a lot of brass.

Isaiah Chapter 1 יְשַׁעְיָהוּ
א חֲזוֹן, יְשַׁעְיָהוּ בֶן-אָמוֹץ, אֲשֶׁר חָזָה, עַל-יְהוּדָה וִירוּשָׁלִָם--בִּימֵי עֻזִּיָּהוּ יוֹתָם אָחָז יְחִזְקִיָּהוּ, מַלְכֵי יְהוּדָה. 1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
ב שִׁמְעוּ שָׁמַיִם וְהַאֲזִינִי אֶרֶץ, כִּי יְהוָה דִּבֵּר: בָּנִים גִּדַּלְתִּי וְרוֹמַמְתִּי, וְהֵם פָּשְׁעוּ בִי. 2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth, for the LORD hath spoken: Children I have reared, and brought up, and they have rebelled against Me.
ג יָדַע שׁוֹר קֹנֵהוּ, וַחֲמוֹר אֵבוּס בְּעָלָיו; יִשְׂרָאֵל לֹא יָדַע, עַמִּי לֹא הִתְבּוֹנָן. 3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib; but Israel doth not know, My people doth not consider.
ד הוֹי גּוֹי חֹטֵא, עַם כֶּבֶד עָו‍ֹן--זֶרַע מְרֵעִים, בָּנִים מַשְׁחִיתִים; עָזְבוּ אֶת-יְהוָה, נִאֲצוּ אֶת-קְדוֹשׁ יִשְׂרָאֵל--נָזֹרוּ אָחוֹר. 4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evil-doers, children that deal corruptly; they have forsaken the LORD, they have contemned the Holy One of Israel, they are turned away backward.
ה עַל מֶה תֻכּוּ עוֹד, תּוֹסִיפוּ סָרָה; כָּל-רֹאשׁ לָחֳלִי, וְכָל-לֵבָב דַּוָּי. 5 On what part will ye yet be stricken, seeing ye stray away more and more? The whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint;
ו מִכַּף-רֶגֶל וְעַד-רֹאשׁ אֵין-בּוֹ מְתֹם, פֶּצַע וְחַבּוּרָה וּמַכָּה טְרִיָּה; לֹא-זֹרוּ וְלֹא חֻבָּשׁוּ, וְלֹא רֻכְּכָה בַּשָּׁמֶן. 6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and festering sores: they have not been pressed, neither bound up, neither mollified with oil.
ז אַרְצְכֶם שְׁמָמָה, עָרֵיכֶם שְׂרֻפוֹת אֵשׁ; אַדְמַתְכֶם, לְנֶגְדְּכֶם זָרִים אֹכְלִים אֹתָהּ, וּשְׁמָמָה, כְּמַהְפֵּכַת זָרִים. 7 Your country is desolate; your cities are burned with fire; your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by floods.
ח וְנוֹתְרָה בַת-צִיּוֹן, כְּסֻכָּה בְכָרֶם; כִּמְלוּנָה בְמִקְשָׁה, כְּעִיר נְצוּרָה. 8 And the daughter of Zion is left as a booth in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city.
ט לוּלֵי יְהוָה צְבָאוֹת, הוֹתִיר לָנוּ שָׂרִיד כִּמְעָט--כִּסְדֹם הָיִינוּ, לַעֲמֹרָה דָּמִינוּ. {פ} 9 Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, we should have been like unto Gomorrah. {P}
י שִׁמְעוּ דְבַר-יְהוָה, קְצִינֵי סְדֹם; הַאֲזִינוּ תּוֹרַת אֱלֹהֵינוּ, עַם עֲמֹרָה. 10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
יא לָמָּה-לִּי רֹב-זִבְחֵיכֶם יֹאמַר יְהוָה, שָׂבַעְתִּי עֹלוֹת אֵילִים וְחֵלֶב מְרִיאִים; וְדַם פָּרִים וּכְבָשִׂים וְעַתּוּדִים, לֹא חָפָצְתִּי. 11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto Me? saith the LORD; I am full of the burnt-offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he-goats.
יב כִּי תָבֹאוּ, לֵרָאוֹת פָּנָי--מִי-בִקֵּשׁ זֹאת מִיֶּדְכֶם, רְמֹס חֲצֵרָי. 12 When ye come to appear before Me, who hath required this at your hand, to trample My courts?

[_stemelbow]

Well for one the Book of Mormon copies Isaiah word for word, when it shouldn't. Who is being lazy, Joseph or God, and if Joseph why would he need to or how would he know where to copy and not copy from the Bible. This issue of different authors is very bad for the Book of Mormon, but certainly not the only one.

I agree with what you've said here for the most part. I'm not so sure we can safely say "it shouldn't" but I won't quibble about it too much.

You bring up the brass plates, which brings up an issue I think is very deadly to Book of Mormon truth cliams that is mostly ignored by both sides. How much brass would it take to write down that much of the olt testement. It almost certainly would have been written in hebrew, and I am not aware that they could write significantly less then english to convey information. It would be interesting for someone to do some research on this.

I'm not sure how its a "deadly" issue for the Book of Mormon truth claims if the "interesting" research hasn't been done.

[_stemelbow]

Here is the beginning of Isaiah in Hebrew and in English - the Hebrew is somewhat more succinct, in some cases being only 50% of the English, sometimes nearer to 75%. That would still take a heck of a lot of brass.

Isaiah Chapter 1 יְשַׁעְיָהוּ
א חֲזוֹן, יְשַׁעְיָהוּ בֶן-אָמוֹץ, אֲשֶׁר חָזָה, עַל-יְהוּדָה וִירוּשָׁלִָם--בִּימֵי עֻזִּיָּהוּ יוֹתָם אָחָז יְחִזְקִיָּהוּ, מַלְכֵי יְהוּדָה. 1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
ב שִׁמְעוּ שָׁמַיִם וְהַאֲזִינִי אֶרֶץ, כִּי יְהוָה דִּבֵּר: בָּנִים גִּדַּלְתִּי וְרוֹמַמְתִּי, וְהֵם פָּשְׁעוּ בִי. 2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth, for the LORD hath spoken: Children I have reared, and brought up, and they have rebelled against Me.
ג יָדַע שׁוֹר קֹנֵהוּ, וַחֲמוֹר אֵבוּס בְּעָלָיו; יִשְׂרָאֵל לֹא יָדַע, עַמִּי לֹא הִתְבּוֹנָן. 3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib; but Israel doth not know, My people doth not consider.
ד הוֹי גּוֹי חֹטֵא, עַם כֶּבֶד עָו‍ֹן--זֶרַע מְרֵעִים, בָּנִים מַשְׁחִיתִים; עָזְבוּ אֶת-יְהוָה, נִאֲצוּ אֶת-קְדוֹשׁ יִשְׂרָאֵל--נָזֹרוּ אָחוֹר. 4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evil-doers, children that deal corruptly; they have forsaken the LORD, they have contemned the Holy One of Israel, they are turned away backward.
ה עַל מֶה תֻכּוּ עוֹד, תּוֹסִיפוּ סָרָה; כָּל-רֹאשׁ לָחֳלִי, וְכָל-לֵבָב דַּוָּי. 5 On what part will ye yet be stricken, seeing ye stray away more and more? The whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint;
ו מִכַּף-רֶגֶל וְעַד-רֹאשׁ אֵין-בּוֹ מְתֹם, פֶּצַע וְחַבּוּרָה וּמַכָּה טְרִיָּה; לֹא-זֹרוּ וְלֹא חֻבָּשׁוּ, וְלֹא רֻכְּכָה בַּשָּׁמֶן. 6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and festering sores: they have not been pressed, neither bound up, neither mollified with oil.
ז אַרְצְכֶם שְׁמָמָה, עָרֵיכֶם שְׂרֻפוֹת אֵשׁ; אַדְמַתְכֶם, לְנֶגְדְּכֶם זָרִים אֹכְלִים אֹתָהּ, וּשְׁמָמָה, כְּמַהְפֵּכַת זָרִים. 7 Your country is desolate; your cities are burned with fire; your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by floods.
ח וְנוֹתְרָה בַת-צִיּוֹן, כְּסֻכָּה בְכָרֶם; כִּמְלוּנָה בְמִקְשָׁה, כְּעִיר נְצוּרָה. 8 And the daughter of Zion is left as a booth in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city.
ט לוּלֵי יְהוָה צְבָאוֹת, הוֹתִיר לָנוּ שָׂרִיד כִּמְעָט--כִּסְדֹם הָיִינוּ, לַעֲמֹרָה דָּמִינוּ. {פ} 9 Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, we should have been like unto Gomorrah. {P}
י שִׁמְעוּ דְבַר-יְהוָה, קְצִינֵי סְדֹם; הַאֲזִינוּ תּוֹרַת אֱלֹהֵינוּ, עַם עֲמֹרָה. 10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
יא לָמָּה-לִּי רֹב-זִבְחֵיכֶם יֹאמַר יְהוָה, שָׂבַעְתִּי עֹלוֹת אֵילִים וְחֵלֶב מְרִיאִים; וְדַם פָּרִים וּכְבָשִׂים וְעַתּוּדִים, לֹא חָפָצְתִּי. 11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto Me? saith the LORD; I am full of the burnt-offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he-goats.
יב כִּי תָבֹאוּ, לֵרָאוֹת פָּנָי--מִי-בִקֵּשׁ זֹאת מִיֶּדְכֶם, רְמֹס חֲצֵרָי. 12 When ye come to appear before Me, who hath required this at your hand, to trample My courts?

Very interesting. Let's also keep in mind there is no reason to assume the brass plates somehow included all ofthe Old Testament. Perhaps parts with some writings no longer found.