Mormons are ashamed of their own beliefs

[_Jason Bourne]

Really harmony everyone just cuts? Nobody sets aside money or funds for a rainy day. Everyone just wings it and cuts in bad times or suffers! Some do of course but prudent people and organizations don't, including churches. Does the organization you work for operate like this?


Well I understand where you are coming from and I think we are close in some aspects but not entirely. I think your approach is much too extreme. We will have to agree to disagree to a certain extent on this one.

[_Runtu]

Really harmony everyone just cuts? Nobody sets aside money or funds for a rainy day. Everyone just wings it and cuts in bad times or suffers! Some do of course but prudent people and organizations don't, including churches. Does the organization you work for operate like this?


Well I understand where you are coming from and I think we are close in some aspects but not entirely. I think your approach is much too extreme. We will have to agree to disagree to a certain extent on this one.

That's about where I stand. I'm not going to argue with Harmony. As I said, I would like to see them publish their books, and I think they've made some poor investments. And yes, I do think sometimes the church acts as if it were a corporation that does religion on the side.

But I don't have a problem with them diversifying income so that they aren't hit so hard by fluctuations in tithing income. It makes sense to me and you, it seems, so I'll just have to disagree with Harmony and leave it at that.

[_harmony]

Really harmony everyone just cuts? Nobody sets aside money or funds for a rainy day. Everyone just wings it and cuts in bad times or suffers! Some do of course but prudent people and organizations don't, including churches. Does the organization you work for operate like this?

My organization is divided into 15 divisions. We generate hundreds of millions of dollars a year in charitable giving. My division came in $15 million short in 2009, even though my own district made goal. No other division came that close. My division laid off 150 people division-wide at the start of fiscal year 2010 and endured a year long hiring freeze. It was worse in most other divisions. No raises for anyone, even if you exceeded your $ goal. In addition to cutting the 150 staff, we cut out things like bottled water and coffee in the offices (bring your own or drink the faucet water), cut the travel reimbursement from $.50 to $.44 per mile for staff who drove their own cars (even though the government allowed $.50), cut all trainings that required travel and substituted webcasts, changed 2 of the 4 BOD meetings to conference calls, and cut the salaries of all staff above directors by 4 to 10%, depending on the level. We were still under goal last year, but managed to eek out a 2% merit raise. We're flat this year, and I'm not sure if we're going to get a raise. The hiring freeze is still on. We aren't laying anyone off without cause, but we're not replacing anyone who leaves or retires. The strain is incredible, but we did it because we are mandated to balance our budget: that which comes in goes out. Our operating budget is over $40 million; we dipped into our "rainy day fund" just to keep the offices open, but still had to lay off all those people. We hoped to put a million back into the rainy day fund this year, but that's simply not going to happen.

In my town, a nationwide business just closed their doors today and laid off 100 people. Those 100 jobs will be absorbed by other offices of that business, but those 100 people just hit the bricks looking for work. Our government funded jobs have been cut by 1500 and another 1500 will be laid off before Sept 1. The universities in my state took 25% cuts and raised tuition after they laid off hundreds of staff, including closing entire programs. DOH took enormous cuts in programs, absorbing some staff, but laying off a lot of people. DOC is laying off people (which is really scary). My daughter who is teacher took a 3% pay cut this year, and her workload increased because the districts aren't hiring teachers any more.

Why is the church exempt from this? Why do they not live within their means, like everyone else?

So yes, I know what I'm talking about when I say enormous organizations have and will continue to tighten their budgets during these tough economic times. My organization doesn't own other businesses; I see no reason for the church to be any different.

Well I understand where you are coming from and I think we are close in some aspects but not entirely. I think your approach is much too extreme. We will have to agree to disagree to a certain extent on this one.

I know you understand, and I appreciate your comments, even while I know we don't agree on this. You see this from a very practical point of view (must have something to do with your chosen profession); I see this from an entirely different viewpoint (must have something to with with my chosen profession).

[_harmony]

That's about where I stand. I'm not going to argue with Harmony. As I said, I would like to see them publish their books, and I think they've made some poor investments. And yes, I do think sometimes the church acts as if it were a corporation that does religion on the side.

Absolutely brilliant, Runtu. Although I'd have to say "most of the time", instead of sometimes.

[_ludwigm]

Repeating the structure "Tithing Trough" Harmony is disgusting for me, in the culinary sense : sickening.

See other definitions for disgusting:
1. Extremely unpleasant to the senses or feelings: atrocious, foul, horrid, nasty, nauseating, offensive, repellent, repulsive, revolting, ugly, unwholesome, vile. See like/dislike, pain/pleasure.
2. So objectionable as to elicit despisal or deserve condemnation: abhorrent, abominable, antipathetic, contemptible, despicable, despisable, detestable, filthy, foul, infamous, loathsome, lousy, low, mean2, nasty, nefarious, obnoxious, odious, repugnant, rotten, shabby, vile, wretched. See good/bad.

You know, english is not my native language. I should use textual helps.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Hello,

Still waiting for Mr. Pahoran to offer citations.

V/R
Dr. Cam

Post Script- To Ms. Harmony: When I say TBMs I don't mean you. I don't think you're a TBM. You're more NOM'ish than anything else. I apologize in advance if that offends you.

[_harmony]

Repeating the structure "Tithing Trough" Harmony is disgusting for me, in the culinary sense : sickening.

See other definitions for disgusting:
1. Extremely unpleasant to the senses or feelings: atrocious, foul, horrid, nasty, nauseating, offensive, repellent, repulsive, revolting, ugly, unwholesome, vile. See like/dislike, pain/pleasure.
2. So objectionable as to elicit despisal or deserve condemnation: abhorrent, abominable, antipathetic, contemptible, despicable, despisable, detestable, filthy, foul, infamous, loathsome, lousy, low, mean2, nasty, nefarious, obnoxious, odious, repugnant, rotten, shabby, vile, wretched. See good/bad.

You know, english is not my native language. I should use textual helps.

I've offended you, ludwig?

[_Yoda]

Repeating the structure "Tithing Trough" Harmony is disgusting for me, in the culinary sense : sickening.

See other definitions for disgusting:
1. Extremely unpleasant to the senses or feelings: atrocious, foul, horrid, nasty, nauseating, offensive, repellent, repulsive, revolting, ugly, unwholesome, vile. See like/dislike, pain/pleasure.
2. So objectionable as to elicit despisal or deserve condemnation: abhorrent, abominable, antipathetic, contemptible, despicable, despisable, detestable, filthy, foul, infamous, loathsome, lousy, low, mean2, nasty, nefarious, obnoxious, odious, repugnant, rotten, shabby, vile, wretched. See good/bad.

You know, english is not my native language. I should use textual helps.

I've offended you, ludwig?

It sounds to me like Ludwig was offended that Pahoran referred to you in that way based on the definition that he found.

[_thews]

and blacks being evil in the pre-existence

We don't believe that, so why would we want to talk about it?

You mean you don't believe in racism now, after God supposedly changed his mind in 1978? The doctrine changed the "white and delightsome" part in 1981, but to ignore what remains is rooted in ignorance of the truth... something you know a lot about. When you state "we" in the above to speak for all Mormons, did you actually mean "I" instead?

Here's something very foreign to you Simon... data:
http://mormonthink.com/blackweb.htm

Doctrine supported by LDS Scriptures.
2 Nephi 5: 21

'And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people, the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.'
Alma 3: 6

'And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.'
2 Nephi 30: 6

"...their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and a delightsome people."
NOTE: THE TERM 'WHITE' WAS CHANGED TO 'PURE' IN 1981.
3 Nephi 2:15

"And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites."
Jacob 3: 5, 8-9

5 Behold, the Lamanites your brethren, whom ye hate because of their filthiness and the cursing which hath come upon their skins, are more righteous than you; for they have not forgotten the commandment of the Lord, which was given unto our father—that they should have save it were one wife, and concubines they should have none, and there should not be whoredoms committed among them.

8 O my brethren, I fear that unless ye shall repent of your sins that their skins will be whiter than yours, when ye shall be brought with them before the throne of God.
9 Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, which is the word of God, that ye revile no more against them because of the darkness of their skins; neither shall ye revile against them because of their filthiness; but ye shall remember your own filthiness, and remember that their filthiness came because of their fathers.
Moses 7:22

And Enoch also beheld the residue of the people which were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them.
Abraham 1:21-24,27

Now this king of Egypt was a descendant from the loins of Ham, and was a partaker of the blood of the Canaanites by birth.
From this descent sprang all the Egyptians, and thus the blood of the Canaanites was preserved in the land.
The land of Egypt being first discovered by a woman, who was the daughter of Ham, and the daughter of Egyptus, which in the Chaldean signifies Egypt, which signifies that which is forbidden;
When this woman discovered the land it was under water, who afterward settled her sons in it; and thus, from Ham, sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land.
Now, Pharaoh being of that lineage by which he could not have the right of Priesthood, notwithstanding the Pharaohs would fain claim it from Noah, through Ham, therefore my father was led away by their idolatry;

Official LDS Church Publications Explain Racist LDS Scriptures:

"The Book of Abraham is rich both in doctrine and in historical incidents. Of the latter the fact of the large influence (if not identity) of Egyptian religious ideas in Chaldea in the days of Abraham is established; the descent of the black race (Negro) from Cain, the first murderer; the preservation of that race through the flood by the wife of Ham--"Egyptus," which in the Chaldean signifies "Egypt," "which signifies that which is forbidden"--the descendants of "Egyptus" were cursed as pertaining to the priesthood--that is, they were barred from holding that divine power; the origin also of the Egyptians--these things, together with the account of Abraham migrating from Chaldea to Egypt, constitute the chief historical items that are contained in the book.
- Comprehensive History of the Church, Vol.2, Ch.47, Pg.128


"Their skin is quite black, their hair woolly and black, their intelligence stunted, and they appear never to have arisen from the most savage state of barbarism."
- The Juvenile Instructor, Vol. 3, page 157


"Is or is it not apparent from reason and analogy as drawn from a careful reading of the Scriptures, that God causes the saints, or people that fall away from his church to be cursed in time, with a black skin? Was or was not Cain, being marked, obliged to inherit the curse, he and his children, forever? And if so, as Ham, like other sons of God, might break the rule of God, by marrying out of the church, did or did he not, have a Canaanite wife, whereby some of the black seed was preserved through the flood, and his son, Canaan, after he laughed at his grandfather's nakedness, heired three curses: one from Cain for killing Abel; one from Ham for marrying a black wife, and one from Noah for ridiculing what God had respect for? Are or are not the Indians a sample of marking with blackness for rebellion against God's holy word and holy order? And can or can we not observe in the countenances of almost all nations, except the Gentile, a dark, sallow hue, which tells the sons of God, without a line of history, that they have fallen or changed from the original beauty and grace of father Adam?"
- LDS Messenger and Advocate (Mar 1835) William Phelps "Letter No. 5," Pg.82


"History and common observation show that these predictions have been fulfilled to the letter. The descendants of Ham, besides a black skin which has ever been a curse that has followed an apostate of the holy priesthood, as well as a black heart, have been servants to both Shem and Japheth, and the abolitionists are trying to make void the curse of God, but it will require more power than man possesses to counteract the decrees of eternal wisdom."
- Times and Seasons, Vol.6, Pg.857

White and Delightsome or Pure and Delightsome? - A Look at 2 Nephi 30:6

http://www.mrm.org/multimedia/text/pure-white.html

By Bill McKeever and Eric Johnson

Until 1981 2 Nephi 30:6 in the Book of Mormon taught that dark-skinned Lamanites (Indians) would eventually experience a change in the color of their skin should they embrace the Book of Mormon. This passage of Mormon scripture read:

"...their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and a delightsome people."

However, in 1981, the LDS Church decided to change "the most correct book on earth" and switched the word "white" with the word "pure." Some Mormons insist that this was a clarification since the word was never meant to refer to a person with dark skin pigmentation who would magically turn white based upon a conversion to the Mormon gospel; rather, it is claimed that the change referred to a cleaner state of heart. This assumption is definitely not supported in the Book of Mormon since 2 Nephi 5:21 says,

"And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, and they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them."

Furthermore, we find another reference to a change in skin color in 3 Nephi 2:15. This passage reads:

"And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites."

That the context refers to skin color is verified by a number of LDS leaders including Joseph Smith. Mormon author George D. Smith notes that Joseph Smith was given a revelation which foretold of a day when intermarriage with the Lamanites would produce a white and delightsome posterity. George Smith wrote, "This unpublished 17 July 1831 revelation was described three decades later in an 1861 letter from W.W. Phelps to Brigham Young quoting Joseph Smith: `It is my will, that in time, ye should take unto you wives of the Lamanites and Nephites, that their posterity, may become white, delightsome and just.' In the 8 December 1831 Ohio Star, Ezra Booth wrote of a revelation directing Mormon elders to marry with the `natives'" (Sunstone, November 1993, footnote #5, pg. 52).

Second LDS President Brigham Young stated in 1859, "You may inquire of the intelligent of the world whether they can tell why the aborigines of this country are dark, loathsome, ignorant, and sunken into the depths of degradation ...When the Lord has a people, he makes covenants with them and gives unto them promises: then, if they transgress his law, change his ordinances, and break his covenants he has made with them, he will put a mark upon them, as in the case of the Lamanites and other portions of the house of Israel; but by-and-by they will become a white and delightsome people" (Journal of Discourses 7:336).

At the October 1960 LDS Church Conference, Spencer Kimball utilized 2 Nephi 30:6 when he stated how the Indians "are fast becoming a white and delightsome people." He said, "The [Indian] children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation" (Improvement Era, December 1960, pp. 922-3).

During the same message Kimball referred to a 16-year-old Indian girl who was both LDS and "several shades lighter than her parents..." He went on to say, "These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness. One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated."

LDS writer George Edward Clark gives a similar account in his book entitled "Why I Believe." On page 129 he wrote, "The writer has been privileged to sit at table with several members of the Catawba tribe of Indians, whose reservation is near the north border of South Carolina. That tribe, or most of its people, are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon). Those Indians, at least as many as I have observed, were white and delightsome, as white and fair as any group of citizens of our country. I know of no prophecy, ancient or modern, that has had a more literal fulfillment" (emphasis his).

It has also been taught in Mormonism that opposite repercussions could result when a white man abandoned his Mormon faith. For instance, the Juvenile Instructor (26:635) reads,

"From this it is very clear that the mark which was set upon the descendants of Cain was a skin of blackness, and there can be no doubt that this was the mark that Cain himself received; in fact, it has been noticed in our day that men who have lost the spirit of the Lord, and from whom his blessings have been withdrawn, have turned dark to such an extend as to excite the comments of all who have known them."

In 1857, Brigham Young declared that apostates would "become gray-haired, wrinkled, and black, just like the Devil" (Journal of Discourses 5:332).

Despite the comments from past Mormon leaders, skin color has nothing to do with a person's spirituality. To say 2 Nephi 30:6 was altered merely for clarification and had nothing to do with skin color is without merit. It was a false prophecy, nothing more, nothing less.

Chronology of 2 Nephi 30:6

"... many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a WHITE and a delightsome people." (1830 Edition, p. 117)

"... PURE and delightsome people." (1840 edition)

"...WHITE and delightsome people." (All later translations until 1981)

"... PURE and delightsome people." (1981 translations , II Nephi 30:6)

[_DrW]

Looks as though Simon has just been introduced to both barrels and the whole nine yards.