Would you lie under oath? (Believers and non-believers)

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_JAK
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Re: Would you lie under oath? (Believers and non-believers)

Post by _JAK »

Jersey Girl wrote:Hello Folks!

I've been following the Casey Anthony murder trial (commenting on it in the Old Testament here on MDB) and got to thinking about the oath taken prior to giving testimony in US Courts.

The oath goes something like this...

"Do you solemnly affirm or swear to tell the truth and the whole truth so help you God?"

Question for Atheists: Okay, this is obvious, but how do you think you would feel about taking such an oath?

Thanks,
Jersey Girl
:-)

-----------------------------

“The truth” in any complex situation is often relative to the perspective of the observer. As a witness in court, one may be obligated to answer only the questions asked. Such answers, absent the opportunity to qualify those answers, may, in themselves, be misleading or make a witness appear to state that which compromises his/her position or perspective.

Second, whether one is an atheist or not is irrelevant since the affirmation as in “affirm” that answers are true is applicable regardless of that persons religious affiliation or lack of it. The word “or” in the admonition is inclusive. If one affirms that he/she will be truthful, it’s equal to swearing to be truthful.

In addition, and related to what witnesses state, is a jury’s perception of reasonable doubt. What is reasonable doubt? That may depend largely on how effective the prosecution was or the defense was. Further, what is “reasonable” to one person may not be reasonable to another. A jury which is required to have unanimous consent may be unable to achieve that. While all members of the jury were exposed to the same things, individuals may weigh specific evidence more heavily than other individuals on the same jury.

We know that there are people convicted and in jail for crimes they did not commit. Conversely, we also know there are people who are entirely free who have committed crimes for which they would be in jail if they had been found and tried. Justice is not equal nor absolute.

It is unlikely that all witnesses know the “whole truth.” Contradictory testimony is evidence of that. Confronted with contradictory evidence, the jury must weigh what it has heard. There are a significant number of hung juries as well as rulings for a mistrial.

This is with the very case in mind which you present as example. In the O.J. Simpson case, the jury did not accept DNA evidence for example. Today, most juries do accept such evidence.

If one swears or affirms to tell the truth, such a person is telling the court that he/she will tell the truth (to the best of his/her capacity to do that) given the questions presented by the dueling lawyers. If a jury is 11 to 1 for a verdict, the pressure on that one is intense to cave in to the other 11 jurors. After 30 days of trial and absence from one’s own life, it’s most difficult if not impossible for a single juror to hold out.

JAK
_daheshism
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Re: Would you lie under oath? (Believers and non-believers)

Post by _daheshism »

Runtu,

You lied about Darrick Evenson didn't you? How is that lie ok?


Runtu wrote:If my child were guilty, no, I wouldn't. I can forgive my children, but I will not lie to help them escape the consequences of their own actions. I know, sounds harsh, but if I lied to cover for them, and they got off without consequences, they'd probably think I'd do it again the next time they got in trouble.

If my kid were facing the death penalty and I knew he or she was guilty, my advice would be to plea bargain for a lighter sentence.
_Yoda

Re: Would you lie under oath? (Believers and non-believers)

Post by _Yoda »

daheshism wrote:Runtu,

You lied about Darrick Evenson didn't you? How is that lie ok?


Runtu wrote:If my child were guilty, no, I wouldn't. I can forgive my children, but I will not lie to help them escape the consequences of their own actions. I know, sounds harsh, but if I lied to cover for them, and they got off without consequences, they'd probably think I'd do it again the next time they got in trouble.

If my kid were facing the death penalty and I knew he or she was guilty, my advice would be to plea bargain for a lighter sentence.


This should be stunning. How did Runtu lie about you?
_Sethbag
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Re: Would you lie under oath? (Believers and non-believers)

Post by _Sethbag »

Jersey Girl wrote:"Do you solemnly affirm or swear to tell the truth and the whole truth so help you God?"

Question for Atheists: Okay, this is obvious, but how do you think you would feel about taking such an oath?

I swore an oath of office last year for the government that ended in "so help me God." I am an atheist. Does that mean that I don't think I'm really bound by my oath? Of course not! I regard the "so help me God" as merely a figure of speech intended to impress upon one the seriousness of the oath.

It's like "God damnit!" being called out by someone who has become very angry about something. It is not truly a call for a supernatural being to commit a third party to the eternal flames of Hell; it is a figure of speech meant to express great distress, anger, fear, etc.

I'm with Runtu on this one. If I knew my child were guilty I'd try to convince them to plea down for a lighter sentence, but take responsibility for what they'd done.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Would you lie under oath? (Believers and non-believers)

Post by _Jersey Girl »

daheshism wrote:Runtu,

You lied about Darrick Evenson didn't you? How is that lie ok?


Runtu wrote:If my child were guilty, no, I wouldn't. I can forgive my children, but I will not lie to help them escape the consequences of their own actions. I know, sounds harsh, but if I lied to cover for them, and they got off without consequences, they'd probably think I'd do it again the next time they got in trouble.

If my kid were facing the death penalty and I knew he or she was guilty, my advice would be to plea bargain for a lighter sentence.


Get off my thread.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_ludwigm
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Re: Would you lie under oath? (Believers and non-believers)

Post by _ludwigm »

Sethbag wrote:I regard the "so help me God" as merely a figure of speech intended to impress upon one the seriousness of the oath.

I interpret it the same way.

In Hungary, there is no Bible in the court and the oath don't include the word "God".
As yet...

by the way (off)
You know (or not?) we have an arrogant stupid demented government with 2/3 majority.
Our prime minister - a few years before, in opposition - used to say in the parliament the word csuhás (a rude word to clergy; crow/rook/monkish/shaveling). Last year he kissed the hand of the pope...
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
_Socrates
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Re: Would you lie under oath? (Believers and non-believers)

Post by _Socrates »

Jersey Girl wrote:Hello Folks!

I've been following the Casey Anthony murder trial (commenting on it in the Old Testament here on MDB) and got to thinking about the oath taken prior to giving testimony in US Courts.

The oath goes something like this...

"Do you solemnly affirm or swear to tell the truth and the whole truth so help you God?"

Question for Atheists: Okay, this is obvious, but how do you think you would feel about taking such an oath?


Question for both Atheists and Believers: If you were sworn in as a witness in the murder trial of your child, knowing that the death penalty was part of the package...would you lie under oath if you thought it might save your child from the death penalty? Discuss.

Thanks,
Jersey Girl
:-)

Which truth would you tell under oath?
Mr. Nightlion, "God needs a valid stooge nation and people to play off to wind up the scene."
_just me
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Re: Would you lie under oath? (Believers and non-believers)

Post by _just me »

Jersey Girl wrote:
just me wrote:I'm pretty sure they don't say "so help you god" anymore.

I have no idea, but I don't think I would lie.


They do in Florida, BFF.

:-)


I guess they still say that everywhere. At least my quick google search seemed to say so. It's not like I actually go to court very often.

Oh well.
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
_LDSToronto
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Re: Would you lie under oath? (Believers and non-believers)

Post by _LDSToronto »

Socrates wrote:Which truth would you tell under oath?


The whole truth, and nothing but the truth. So help me God (get to 300).

H.

297 on the road to 300.
"Others cannot endure their own littleness unless they can translate it into meaningfulness on the largest possible level."
~ Ernest Becker
"Whether you think of it as heavenly or as earthly, if you love life immortality is no consolation for death."
~ Simone de Beauvoir
_ludwigm
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Re: Would you lie under oath? (Believers and non-believers)

Post by _ludwigm »

For me, this is something faced by Abraham.
(The little difference is that Isaac was innocent.)

Apparently, I don't pass the abrahamic test. And I am proud of this.
My children, my family, my tribe are above of any other children, families or tribes. And gods and societies...

I think I am not alone.
See history of humanity...
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
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