LDS Demonology?

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_beefcalf
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Re: LDS Demonology?

Post by _beefcalf »

The Nehor wrote:
beefcalf wrote:When people observe strange phenomena that they do not understand, some of the more foolish among them might say crazy things like "I don't know what happened," but God's chosen people know the truth: 'it was them demons!'


It matched all the criteria so I diagnosed it.

If you have an alternate explanation (involving swamp gas and mind-control lasers?) feel free to share your reasoning.


The beauty of science is that it is full of "I don't knows." Indeed, the "I don't knows" delineate the frontier of new discovery. It is part-and-parcel of science. It's OK to not know (as long as you intend to then find out, that is).

Whatever happened to you on your mission, is it really proper to assign it to 'demons'? Why can't it simply be "I don't know what happened"? And in a world filled with scientific research on psychological phenomena, wouldn't you feel just a bit better with the jury still out?

When you find that you don't understand something, don't suddenly decide you do. In other words, when you don't understand something, accept that as the status quo. Running off wildly, screaming "fairies" or "demons" or "magic invisible unicorns" doesn't lend much to your credibility.
eschew obfuscation

"I'll let you believers in on a little secret: not only is the LDS church not really true, it's obviously not true." -Sethbag
_Themis
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Re: LDS Demonology?

Post by _Themis »

The Nehor wrote:The criteria for what is commonly called possession (though in the case we're discussing it was more an attempted one). For some examples I suggest reading the New Testament.


I have read it many times, but your answer is a dodge. I am interested in what you think the criteria is. I don't hold out much hope that you will give specifics. :)
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_MrStakhanovite
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Re: LDS Demonology?

Post by _MrStakhanovite »

Thanks for sharing Nehor, despite the anticipated responses.
_MrStakhanovite
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Re: LDS Demonology?

Post by _MrStakhanovite »

beefcalf wrote:Whatever happened to you on your mission, is it really proper to assign it to 'demons'?


If someone really believes that Satan exists, and if one really takes to heart the ministry of Jesus, where exorcisms play a major role, it should come as no surprise that the thought of Demons would come to the forefront on Nehor’s mind.

To you and I, the notion of Demons does seem very unlikely, but we don’t have the same basic assumptions that Nehor has. I think a better approach is just to learn more about what Nehor has to say on the subject, and keep our judgments and opinions at bay until asked for them or the time is appropriate.
_The Nehor
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Re: LDS Demonology?

Post by _The Nehor »

beefcalf wrote:The beauty of science is that it is full of "I don't knows." Indeed, the "I don't knows" delineate the frontier of new discovery. It is part-and-parcel of science. It's OK to not know (as long as you intend to then find out, that is).


Indeed and if I didn't know I'd be happy to assign this experience that status. I'm 99% sure I know what it was though.

Whatever happened to you on your mission, is it really proper to assign it to 'demons'?


Yes, the probability is high enough and it fits with the circumstances, accounts of demonic attack I've heard of, and reason (assuming you believe in demons which I definitively do).

Why can't it simply be "I don't know what happened"?


Because I'm pretty sure I do. That would be dishonest. Science would strive to a screeching halt if that were the explanation for things you think you have an explanation for.

And in a world filled with scientific research on psychological phenomena, wouldn't you feel just a bit better with the jury still out?


No.

When you find that you don't understand something, don't suddenly decide you do.


But I did understand it.

In other words, when you don't understand something, accept that as the status quo. Running off wildly, screaming "fairies" or "demons" or "magic invisible unicorns" doesn't lend much to your credibility.


Of course not. That is only because most people don't believe in demons.

To be blunt I'm not really worried about getting credibility here. I also believe an angel delivered golden plates to a backwoods boy in New York and that I talk to God regularly. If believing in a demonic attack actually destroys my credibility with most people here then people here are weird.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_just me
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Re: LDS Demonology?

Post by _just me »

One year at Girl's Camp a bunch of us were sitting in a tent talking. We talked about things like how hot the Stripling Warriors must have been and other general topics tied to the church and scriptures. We started talking about how stupid Satan must be and after being on the topic of Satan for a minute or two began to feel a dark feeling. I think that we all felt that we had invited a demonic spirit or presence into the tent with us.

We ended up saying a prayer, with me acting as voice, to ask for God's protection and invite the proper Spirit back to the tent.

Anyway, may not be exactly what you were looking for, but that experience sticks out for me. I have had other times where I have felt as if a dark presence was in a room with me. As a believer I truly thought that they were demons.

I believe that my last experience was during my loss of belief in the church. I still believed in the Restoration at the time. In the dream I was in my bed and Satan came in a whirlwind and I was having trouble breathing. I couldn't move, either. In my dream I tried to raise my hand to the square and make myself to rebuke the devil in the name of Jesus Christ. I was only able to think the words, although I may have made some kind of noise in real life towards the end of the thought. At the moment the words were formed in my mind I was able to breath and move and the whirlwind immediately ceased. Then I woke up.
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
_Morley
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Re: LDS Demonology?

Post by _Morley »

The Nehor wrote:... To be blunt I'm not really worried about getting credibility here. I also believe an angel delivered golden plates to a backwoods boy in New York and that I talk to God regularly. If believing in a demonic attack actually destroys my credibility with most people here then people here are weird.


I don't believe in demons or angels or backwoods boys or golden plates (or even that everyone here is weird). But this was well put.
_The Nehor
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Re: LDS Demonology?

Post by _The Nehor »

Themis wrote:
The Nehor wrote:The criteria for what is commonly called possession (though in the case we're discussing it was more an attempted one). For some examples I suggest reading the New Testament.


I have read it many times, but your answer is a dodge. I am interested in what you think the criteria is. I don't hold out much hope that you will give specifics. :)


Indeed it was a dodge. Mostly because I don't want to mentally run through what happened again to get the criteria. It wasn't pleasant.

I listed some of them already; here are a few more:

Convulsions
Loss of all fine motor control (had to throw myself in chair to avoid injury)
Voices
Threats to my life and soul
Ugly gritty feeling akin to depression (no light in the world)
Dark thoughts akin to the "I am Legion" school of thought
Despair
A wish to die not coupled with any thoughts of suicide
Irrational fear of being found out by anyone or anything good; a kind of strange paranoia
Desire to hide my possessions for fear of theft (found this one very odd at time; think I get it now)
Malice towards everyone

Feel free to explain away but don't expect my hopes to be dashed by you still not believing my explanation.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_harmony
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Re: LDS Demonology?

Post by _harmony »

just me wrote:One year at Girl's Camp a bunch of us were sitting in a tent talking. We talked about things like how hot the Stripling Warriors must have been and other general topics tied to the church and scriptures. We started talking about how stupid Satan must be and after being on the topic of Satan for a minute or two began to feel a dark feeling. I think that we all felt that we had invited a demonic spirit or presence into the tent with us.

We ended up saying a prayer, with me acting as voice, to ask for God's protection and invite the proper Spirit back to the tent.

Anyway, may not be exactly what you were looking for, but that experience sticks out for me. I have had other times where I have felt as if a dark presence was in a room with me. As a believer I truly thought that they were demons.

I believe that my last experience was during my loss of belief in the church. I still believed in the Restoration at the time. In the dream I was in my bed and Satan came in a whirlwind and I was having trouble breathing. I couldn't move, either. In my dream I tried to raise my hand to the square and make myself to rebuke the devil in the name of Jesus Christ. I was only able to think the words, although I may have made some kind of noise in real life towards the end of the thought. At the moment the words were formed in my mind I was able to breath and move and the whirlwind immediately ceased. Then I woke up.


You did that, successfully, without holding the priesthood? Hmmm... what's the use in keeping males around then?
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_just me
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Re: LDS Demonology?

Post by _just me »

harmony wrote:You did that, successfully, without holding the priesthood? Hmmm... what's the use in keeping males around then?


*grin* I can think of a reason or two....
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
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