Mormons are ashamed of their own beliefs

[_Everybody Wang Chung]

Hello Ms. Harmony,

Sex.

Brigham Young said, "The Lord had cursed Cain's seed with blackness and prohibited them the Priesthood." I believe there was something there about killing a woman on the spot if found having sex with a black man... I'd have to search the anti-Mormon Journal of Discourses to find the quote, though.

V/R
Dr. Cameron

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 110).

[_harmony]

Hello Ms. Harmony,

Sex.

Brigham Young said, "The Lord had cursed Cain's seed with blackness and prohibited them the Priesthood." I believe there was something there about killing a woman on the spot if found having sex with a black man... I'd have to search the anti-Mormon Journal of Discourses to find the quote, though.

V/R
Dr. Cameron

But Cain's sin wasn't sex; Cain's sin was murder.

[_thews]

It was originally "White and delightsome" before it was changed. From the supposed "most perfect book ever written" it was later changed, changed again, and continues to change.

You may have explained this before, but bear with me. Why was it changed to PURE and delightsome in 1840? And who authorized the change?

I'm not really sure, but I'm fairly sure it was Brigham Young who made sure it was changed back. This whole doctrine changing thing is just a part of Mormonism that one must blindly accept. I've heard ridiculous rationalizations like "We just weren't ready for it yet" to justify the change. Others will point the fingers of parallel logic corkscrews that use changes in the Bible to justify changes in Mormon doctrine. A "change" based on a translation from one language into another is vastly different than the close to 4000 changes made to the Book of Mormon, as is the case with White vs. pure. God supposedly wouldn't allow Joseph Smith to continue "seeing" the words through the peep stone placed in his stove-pipe hat unless the words were correct. The first version said "White and delightsome" which supports Mormon theology regarding why black people are "cursed" with black skin.

For Simon to stick his head int he sand and pretend Mormonism isn't racist would have to then explain what changed in 1978 if racism never existed. It did exist, I was taught it as a kid, Mormon missionaries were taught to shy away from people who had color lines on the palms of their hands and feet, and this had nothing to do with blackening "of the heart", as Mormon doctrine clearly defines black skin as a punishment.

http://mormonthink.com/blackweb.htm

2 Nephi 5: 21

'And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people, the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.'
Alma 3: 6

'And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.'
2 Nephi 30: 6

"...their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and a delightsome people."
NOTE: THE TERM 'WHITE' WAS CHANGED TO 'PURE' IN 1981.
3 Nephi 2:15

"And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites."
Jacob 3: 5, 8-9

5 Behold, the Lamanites your brethren, whom ye hate because of their filthiness and the cursing which hath come upon their skins, are more righteous than you; for they have not forgotten the commandment of the Lord, which was given unto our father—that they should have save it were one wife, and concubines they should have none, and there should not be whoredoms committed among them.

8 O my brethren, I fear that unless ye shall repent of your sins that their skins will be whiter than yours, when ye shall be brought with them before the throne of God.
9 Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, which is the word of God, that ye revile no more against them because of the darkness of their skins; neither shall ye revile against them because of their filthiness; but ye shall remember your own filthiness, and remember that their filthiness came because of their fathers.
Moses 7:22

And Enoch also beheld the residue of the people which were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them.

Regarding when it was changed/changed back, changed again before being changed again...
http://mormonthink.com/blackweb.htm

Although the Mormon Church will not make available the handwritten manuscript of the Book of Mormon, the R.L.D.S. Church has the handwritten printer's copy, which was given to the printer to set the type for the first printing. It too, agrees with the 1830 Edition. It reads "white".

So, someone originally wrote "white" (1830) and then someone changed it to "pure" (1840) and then back to "white" (after 1840) and then finally to "pure" (1981).

This is the "most correct book" on earth? This is the result of a "translation" process in which Joseph Smith could not continue until he got it right? For some reason the term got changed from WHITE to PURE. We know faithful apologists who have admitted that it was likely finally changed for good in 1981 to be 'politically correct'. Some others argue that it should have always been PURE but was somehow translated incorrectly in 1830. Others say that this change seems to reflect the Prophet's concern that modern readers might misinterpret this passage as a reference to racial changes rather than to changes in righteousness.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

But Cain's sin wasn't sex; Cain's sin was murder.

Hello Ms. Harmony,

Uh. What?

Sin.

Siiiiiiiiiiin.

There you go.

by the way, I really, really would love to have your daughter's phone #. She would love love love talking to your's truly. Just sayin'. I'm a smoothie.

V/R
Dr. Cam

[_Pahoran]

I'm normally not big on CFR'ing, Pahoran, but I would like to see a source as well. I would particularly like to see a source that shows how the business investments originated. Show me that the original money for those investments did not come from member donations.

I don't dispute that the original money for those investments came from member contributions of some sort or another.

I dispute the obvious libel that leaders encouraging the Saints to pay their tithing now are doing so to line their own pockets, when in fact their incomes are derived from for-profit business activities, the income stream for which has been properly separated from members contributions since long before they were born.

"Tithing Trough" Harmony's fabricated "conflict of interest" here is so obviously false that I'm surprised it even needs to be explained.

As for the other question: I heard in a talk once that Fast Offering funds are supplemented from Tithing if there is a need.

Regards,
Pahoran

[_Pahoran]

Ask Packer. He made a million on the tithes of the poor and widowed. I know... snarky.

And false.

Which is how you prefer it.

President Packer (that's what Latter-day Saints call him) has not made a million dollars. He owns a non-liquid asset, namely a piece of land, that is now worth a whole lot more than he ever paid for it.

I know... you bitterly begrudge him that.

Which makes me even happier to know that he's got it.

If he sold it, he'd have to find somewhere else to live. I'm sure you'd be happy for him to live in a trailer park somewhere; it's not as if he has any grandchildren or anything.

Regards,
Pahoran

[_why me]

Any business. I fail to see how building up a huge portfolio of businesses and investments follows the church's stated mandate and mission. Creating an investment portfoilo, especially a portfolio without any of the checks and balances that a true annual financial report would have... gives the impression that... hmmmm... we aren't in the business of savings mankind or helping the poor... the LDS church is in the business of making money (or losing it, in the case of the mall).

Actually I heard president eyring give a talk and he spoke about the latest economic crisis. He said that president monson instructed the financial services department of the church to get out of the market and put the church's money in more safe investments. This was before the economic downturn when investment firms thought that it was crazy to do so. And sure enough just as the money was transfered the market fell. The impact was so great that one japanese investment firm that the church does business with sent a representive to salt lake to discuss just how the LDS church knew when to do this transaction. The answer: the LDS church has a prophet to lead it.

The LDS church does not broadcast over loud speakers when they are helping the poor. But the LDS church helps the poor a great deal. Much more than would be expected from a church with just a few million members.

[_harmony]

If he sold it, he'd have to find somewhere else to live. I'm sure you'd be happy for him to live in a trailer park somewhere; it's not as if he has any grandchildren or anything.

Regards,
Pahoran

So you're saying he's better than members who live in trailer parks, and pay their tithes so he can live in his million dollar house?

[_harmony]

Any business. I fail to see how building up a huge portfolio of businesses and investments follows the church's stated mandate and mission. Creating an investment portfoilo, especially a portfolio without any of the checks and balances that a true annual financial report would have... gives the impression that... hmmmm... we aren't in the business of savings mankind or helping the poor... the LDS church is in the business of making money (or losing it, in the case of the mall).

Actually I heard president eyring give a talk and he spoke about the latest economic crisis. He said that president monson instructed the financial services department of the church to get out of the market and put the church's money in more safe investments. This was before the economic downturn when investment firms thought that it was crazy to do so. And sure enough just as the money was transfered the market fell. The impact was so great that one japanese investment firm that the church does business with sent a representive to salt lake to discuss just how the LDS church knew when to do this transaction. The answer: the LDS church has a prophet to lead it.

The LDS church does not broadcast over loud speakers when they are helping the poor. But the LDS church helps the poor a great deal. Much more than would be expected from a church with just a few million members.

Why me, I do hope you have a link for this.

[_Pahoran]

Repeating the structure "Tithing Trough" Harmony is disgusting for me, in the culinary sense : sickening.

See other definitions for disgusting:
1. Extremely unpleasant to the senses or feelings: atrocious, foul, horrid, nasty, nauseating, offensive, repellent, repulsive, revolting, ugly, unwholesome, vile. See like/dislike, pain/pleasure.
2. So objectionable as to elicit despisal or deserve condemnation: abhorrent, abominable, antipathetic, contemptible, despicable, despisable, detestable, filthy, foul, infamous, loathsome, lousy, low, mean2, nasty, nefarious, obnoxious, odious, repugnant, rotten, shabby, vile, wretched. See good/bad.

You know, english is not my native language. I should use textual helps.

You're right, Ludwig. Harmony's "Tithing Trough" expression, which she coined to describe how she sees the leaders of the Church -- or at least, how she wants her uninformed audience to see them -- is disgusting. It is atrocious, foul, horrid, nasty, nauseating, offensive, repellent, repulsive, revolting, ugly, unwholesome, vile; also, abhorrent, abominable, antipathetic, contemptible, despicable, despisable, detestable, filthy, foul, infamous, loathsome, lousy, low, mean2, nasty, nefarious, obnoxious, odious, repugnant, rotten, shabby, vile, and wretched.

It's also demonstrably false.

So I hope you will take comfort in the fact that I will be delighted to stop reminding her of it, just as soon as she admits that it was nothing but an expression of her own character.

Regards,
Pahoran