A Poster's Weak Faith Damaged by another Poster?

[_stemelbow]

In truth, with all the many complaints against the church's truth claims, if I were to ever leave it would be because I didn't feel like it was beneficial to join in with the people who call themselves LDS. The church to me is nothing if not an org to embrace each other as the individual embraces the notion of truly loving people. I realize most in the church don't really see that as the purpose of the Church, but that's how I see it. If it ever devolves into a place to exclude, to revel in self-righteousness, to ignore the poor, and/or to develop/create jerks I'm out. As it is there are plenty of LDS who are trying to to all or any of these. These are the types of things that scare me the most--not whether Joseph Smith was clear and accurate about who he saw in the first vision.

Anyway, on this I can see where LDST is coming from, although I do not agree that Pahoran is who he seems to claim he is, at least from what I've read. I encourage the idea that there are hard line LDS, like Pahoran, to balance out the less hard-liners like me. I welcome some diversity.

[_Everybody Wang Chung]

LDSToronto,

Before you decide to make this very important decision, I would encourage you to read "Shaken Faith Syndrome" by Michael Ash. According to Michael Ash, it is one the most important books of the 21st Century. It will not only innoculate you from the more troubling aspects of Church history, but will help you realize what a grave mistake you almost made by leaving the Church.

"Shaken Faith Syndrome" has made Pahoran, Yahoo Bot, SeattleGhostWriter and Droopy into the men they are today. Namely, deeply religious, Christlike, compassionate, kind, gentle patient and understanding God fearing men. You would do well to follow their example.

[_bcspace]

So Harvey Milk was a sexual predator for having sex with teenagers?

So what does that make this guy?

It possibly identifies you as a presentist and also one who hasn't checked the children. But ironically, according to your logic, it puts LDS Toronto in a class of people who support the antiMormon version of what Joseph Smith allegedly did, the very same thing LDS Toronto says he doesn't like about Joseph Smith.

lol

[_schreech]

It possibly identifies you as a presentist and also one who hasn't checked the children.

harvey milk had children with several women? I had no idea....

[_LDSToronto]

It possibly identifies you as a presentist and also one who hasn't checked the children. But ironically, according to your logic, it puts LDS Toronto in a class of people who support the antiMormon version of what Joseph Smith allegedly did, the very same thing LDS Toronto says he doesn't like about Joseph Smith.

lol

WOW! You were able to discern ALL THAT about me without me uttering a single word?!?! That's bloody AWESOME!

BCSpace, I mean, Elder Space, I was all wrong about prophecy and revelation. They DO exist!

H.

[_Buffalo]

So Harvey Milk was a sexual predator for having sex with teenagers?

So what does that make this guy?

It possibly identifies you as a presentist and also one who hasn't checked the children. But ironically, according to your logic, it puts LDS Toronto in a class of people who support the antiMormon version of what Joseph Smith allegedly did, the very same thing LDS Toronto says he doesn't like about Joseph Smith.

lol

So, it's okay to have sex with minors in 1830s and 1840s, but it makes you a sexual predator in the 1970s? How does that work? Is your "presentism" bray just a way of identifying yourself as a moral relativist?

And don't try that children shtick with me. Joseph's wives testified in court to boffing the Lord's prophet, at the behest of the Church.

[_Buffalo]

LDSToronto,

Before you decide to make this very important decision, I would encourage you to read "Shaken Faith Syndrome" by Michael Ash. According to Michael Ash, it is one the most important books of the 21st Century. It will not only innoculate you from the more troubling aspects of Church history, but will help you realize what a grave mistake you almost made by leaving the Church.

"Shaken Faith Syndrome" has made Pahoran, Yahoo Bot, SeattleGhostWriter and Droopy into the men they are today. Namely, deeply religious, Christlike, compassionate, kind, gentle patient and understanding God fearing men. You would do well to follow their example.

Oh snippity snap!

[_Simon Belmont]

Well the human race produced Ted Bundy and Osama bin Laden. I cannot be part of an organization that is capable of producing such monsters.

You will be missed.

LOL!

[_schreech]

So, it's okay to have sex with minors in 1830s and 1840s, but it makes you a sexual predator in the 1970s? How does that work? Is your "presentism" bray just a way of identifying yourself as a moral relativist?

And don't try that children shtick with me. Joseph's wives testified in court to boffing the Lord's prophet, at the behest of the Church.

doesn't the fact that Joe didn't have children with his "wives" prove that he didn't really understand the purpose of polygamy? It seems like he managed to mess the whole thing up....either he was practicing polygamy to raise up a righteous seed or he was just a horny bastard who used his position to have adulterous sex with gullible women...the "where are the children" argument seems more damaging to joe than the critical claim that he was just cheating on his wife...

[_Pahoran]

As I mentioned, and as you've noted, I'd already resolved to move away from the church. You don't have to continue to post the meaning of the word, "resolve"; I've used it correctly in the sentence above.

Are you really that more influential in my life than my family and friends? Of course not. Don't give yourself too much credit.

Actually I don't. I'm the one who finds your claim incredible, i.e. not credible. You were the one trying to give me that much credit. In which case, the following is clearly an intentional falsehood:

I said some of the things you've said have strengthened my resolve. And Pahoran, that's some things you've said over the course of hundreds of posts over a couple of years. More so, as I've mentioned, the LDS church has shaped you into what you are, and it's more the fact that the church could produce a fruit as bad as you.

So, no, I would not have stayed in the church regardless, but my experience of the church is more sour due to you.

Translated into honest English: nothing I said to you had the slightest influence on your decision one way or another; you are just being manipulative. Because, of course, as you and I both know, and you will never admit: I am no part of your experience in the Church.

Now, let me ask *you* a question: Do you treat posting like a game? Are you treating other human beings like an ends to a means? That is, do you derive some pleasure out of insulting those who don't agree with the LDS church? Are you sure that your God and your Jesus approve of your behaviour? I mean, you did read the scripture I quoted (Alma 36:14), right? According to your LDS theological tradition, every time you push a person away from the church, you are in effect, committing murder. Do you feel you are committing murder, as Alma said, each time you tear down instead of building up?

And your melodramatic misrepresentations continue. No, it was nothing like a "murder." Your apostasy was much more like a suicide, and the suicide note said "It's YOUR fault!!! You FORCED me to do this!!!"

Or perhaps it's more like a criminal going on a hunger strike to try to manipulate public opinion in his favour.

Which is really just a slightly age-enhanced -- but no more adult -- version of, "I'm going to kick and scream and hold my breath until I turn blue!!!"

Contrary to your lies, I did not drive you out of the Church; you did that entirely yourself. Contrary to your lies, I did not weaken your faith; it is impossible for me to weaken something that does not exist. Contrary to your lies, I had no impact on your relationships with any of your LDS friends and/or relatives; I don't know any of them, and none of them know me. Your attempt to hang your apostasy on me is just a tired, shopworn anti-Mormon mind game.

You uttered the following slogan: "each time you tear down instead of building up."

Just this once, try to be honest: is there anything at all that I could have said that you would have construed as "building up" instead of "tearing down?"

Anything, that is, apart from affirming and encouraging your apostasy?

Regards,
Pahoran