Testing Stuff

[_stemelbow]

Stem, in your original post you said:

You are now saying that doesn't work for everyone? Or that this may not be sufficient? Or that you don't know what's involved in the entire process? Please clarify.

As I told somebody else, can't remember who, it was probably Just me or Themis, I put it that way in the OP for brevity's sake. By saying what I said there I do not think simply sending out words, God-ward is going to satisfy truth claims for everyone. It takes a great deal of effort, at least for me. And even then I'm left with a lot of sorting out errors, and my own misconceptions.

[_Morley]

As I told somebody else, can't remember who, it was probably Just me or Themis, I put it that way in the OP for brevity's sake. By saying what I said there I do not think simply sending out words, God-ward is going to satisfy truth claims for everyone. It takes a great deal of effort, at least for me. And even then I'm left with a lot of sorting out errors, and my own misconceptions.

So, you're saying it's not as simple as the Church claims it is?

[_just me]

Stem, I want to know if the Book of Mormon is true. Please outline to me what steps I must take to learn if it is true or false. By true, I am assuming that we mean a true historical and spiritual record of the Nephites.

the method I find most reliable is found in Moroni 10.

This is good. So, what do you believe happened in the cases where the Moroni promise was attempted and either 1) no answer was received or 2) the answer was given that the Book of Mormon is not true? I know several people who prayed for several YEARS while a faithful member and never received a witness.

Also, since there are some untrue/false/inaccurate things in the Book of Mormon what does it really mean when the answer is that the Book of Mormon is true?

I am going to tell you my personal experience. I am one of those people who "feels the Spirit" often and fairly easily. Even as an unbeliever...I feel it probably more often now.
I did have a witness that the Book of Mormon is "true." I prayed about it when I was reading it for Seminary as a high school student. However, when all the other evidence-internal and external-point to it being fiction or myth what am I supposed to think? If the book says that there was no death before the Fall of Adam and the scriptures say that Adam fell about 6000 years ago, but all other evidence says that there WAS death before the Fall what conclusion am I supposed to draw here?

At some point it becomes impossible to say that every other evidence and proof in the Universe is false and wrong and the thing for which there is no proof is right. At least for me. The Book of Mormon was the last thing to fall for me. I wanted it to be "true" so bad for many reasons. Now I don't even know what the hell "true" means in the Moroni passage. I still hold on to it being a powerful myth (in parts) for many people. Just probably not in the way others see it..

[_stemelbow]

So, you're saying it's not as simple as the Church claims it is?

I'm not sure the Church claims it all that simple, particularly for some individuals.

[_stemelbow]

This is good. So, what do you believe happened in the cases where the Moroni promise was attempted and either 1) no answer was received or 2) the answer was given that the Book of Mormon is not true? I know several people who prayed for several YEARS while a faithful member and never received a witness.

I don't know. I can only speculate. Perhaps the individual was answered, but did not recognize the answer. And of course there are plenty of amibuous sounding qualifications in Moroni's Promise. They all have to be factored in as possibilities. I don't really know individual circumstances so I can't speak intelligently on this matter. But it just so happens that the possibilities are infinite.

Also, since there are some untrue/false/inaccurate things in the Book of Mormon what does it really mean when the answer is that the Book of Mormon is true?

Oh just that's it central message is what God wants us to learn and understand. At least that's how I see it.

I am going to tell you my personal experience. I am one of those people who "feels the Spirit" often and fairly easily. Even as an unbeliever...I feel it probably more often now.
I did have a witness that the Book of Mormon is "true." I prayed about it when I was reading it for Seminary as a high school student. However, when all the other evidence-internal and external-point to it being fiction or myth what am I supposed to think? If the book says that there was no death before the Fall of Adam and the scriptures say that Adam fell about 6000 years ago, but all other evidence says that there WAS death before the Fall what conclusion am I supposed to draw here?

I don't' know and I'm not expert on it all. Any conclusion you wish. Its all very personal. I don't fault a soul for concluding that its not true. its not an easy propisition to swallow. I get that. Stay true to yourself and everything will work out in the end, of course that's just an LDSism that doesn't mean anything. I simply can't know the end from the beginning, as they say.

At some point it becomes impossible to say that every other evidence and proof in the Universe is false and wrong and the thing for which there is no proof is right. At least for me. The Book of Mormon was the last thing to fall for me. I wanted it to be "true" so bad for many reasons. Now I don't even know what the hell "true" means in the Moroni passage. I still hold on to it being a powerful myth (in parts) for many people. Just probably not in the way others see it..

Interesting. Again, I can't fault you at all. Ibelieve I get what you're saying and where you're coming from, I have just reached a different conclusion.

[_Morley]

So, you're saying it's not as simple as the Church claims it is?

I'm not sure the Church claims it all that simple, particularly for some individuals.

What does the Church claim, Stem?

[_stemelbow]

What does the Church claim, Stem?

Prayer is a way to find truth, generally. Although the church is quite clear that prayer alone doesn't always work. There are plenty of qualifications, there are plenty of caveats.

I don't think the Church's message is to say, "its just that easy."

[_Themis]

Its a good question and pardon the cop out of I don't think I cann put it into words, adequately. But that's how I feel.

How you feel about what? If one cannot put it into words then it really cannot be very good system for learning objective truth claims.

Not getting into the nitty gritty or attempting to mock the no pearls before swine teaching, I'll just have to say spiritual experiences are verified by more spiritual experiences. Thus, when I receive a spiritual experience, or when I have received particular ones in the past, I'm able to find verification of these by having them confirmed through more experiences that in some way confirm the messages received through the first. I truly do think this is a tough process.

Could you give a specific example. It does not need to be from your personal life, and think of it as a potential convert asking these questions. I assume you went on a mission, so you should have some expereince with this.

Another good question and one I don't think is easily resolved. In other words, I don't think its conclusively proven its from divinity. It takes faith. But the experiences to me are my faith, or what make up my faith--reason to trust.

What about other religions who also ask for faith. Does that not make it more likely that you may be wrong, since so many do the same and have different beliefs. What reasons do you have to trust?

As I suggested earlier, yep. you have to follow certain processes to acheive correct results. that's what I try to do with the spiritual. I can only hope this helps explain myself.

It's these processes that I am hoping you would give, and more then just the read ponder and pray, but what happens after. What would you tell a potential convert? How should they know that the Book of Mormon is true. What signs are reasonable to conclude they have recieved divine communication?

[_just me]

It seems to me that the church has lots of caveats and work arounds for tough cases.

But, the whole "promise" is rigged from the get go.

First step: Pray with faith and pure intent. So, you have to actually have faith that it is true before you pray for the witness in order for it to work.

Now, if that doesn't work you will probably be told to give it some more time because God doesn't work on your time table. Keep praying. Throw some fasting in there. Petition the Lord with all your might, mind and strength. Pester the crap out of him.

If that doesn't work you will probably be told to just test the word. Follow all the commandments and see what happens. In order to gain a testimony of tithing, pay tithing. To gain a testimony of keeping the Sabbath day holy, go to all 3 blocks on Sunday. To gain a testimony of the WoW, follow the WoW. Keep reading the Book of Mormon every single day.
We could also add in here to make sure you are free from sin (LOL). Make sure all major sins have been repented of, talk to the bishop or whatever you need to get pure before the Lord.

By this time you have become a tithe paying, full fledged member of the church. It ends up not being all that important that you receive the witness after all. God's time ain't your time so don't expect him to give up a witness to every Tom, Dick and Harry that asks for one.

I may be slightly sarcastic with this post, however this is the jist of what is taught at church in my experience.

[_stemelbow]

How you feel about what? If one cannot put it into words then it really cannot be very good system for learning objective truth claims.

That's am assumptions I just can't buy, Themis.

Could you give a specific example. It does not need to be from your personal life, and think of it as a potential convert asking these questions. I assume you went on a mission, so you should have some expereince with this.

I can't give an example, sorry. I"m in the inenviable position, now, to put things into words that I already concede I can't put into words...and on the basis of me not beinga ble to put it into words you have already concluded it can't be a reliable method. Don't get me wrong, i feel comfortable in my faith, but my faith is far to sacred to treat it in anyway lightly. I'm sure that's not all that much of a respectable position, but I have to be true to myself here.

What about other religions who also ask for faith. Does that not make it more likely that you may be wrong, since so many do the same and have different beliefs. What reasons do you have to trust?

I have my own personal dealings that no one else can see and no one else can fully understand or appreciate. If God seeks to work with the individual, then its incumbant upon the individual to trust in that work. But in this, as I've tried to explain, I don't' think its some wholly un-taintable method. its just the best method chosen by God. And to think its all about trying to get each and every one of us to reach deep inside ourselves so much so that we extend ourselves to a higher power seems refreshing to me. Its like there's a key to unlock truths that everyone has. Its a matter of learning how to key works.

It's these processes that I am hoping you would give, and more then just the read ponder and pray, but what happens after. What would you tell a potential convert? How should they know that the Book of Mormon is true. What signs are reasonable to conclude they have recieved divine communication?

In every case I've been involved with concerning potential converts, I've remained quite vague about the specifics for two reasons--1. I can't put my personal experiences into words, appropriately, and 2. I'm open to the diea that it all works, in terms of the details differently for different folks.