The historical record doesn't seem to support insinuations that the Mountain Meadows Massacre was theologically motivated in any substantial way, let alone that it was somehow dictated by "fundamentalism."
schreech wrote:the mistakes for former "prophets" and LDS leaders....
There is no reason to believe that nineteenth-century prophets were responsible in any significant way for the Mountain Meadows Massacre.
It seems ironic to have to remind people here (given the pretensions of the place) that dogma doesn't Trump facts. But, plainly, I do.
schreech wrote:I agree...I don't blame all living Germans for the nazi regime and i certainly don't blame the current LDS church for the cold-blooded murder of a bunch of innocents who happened to be in the wrong, fundamentalist controlled, territory over 100 years ago...Thomas Monson didn't kill those people so I see no reason why he should be coerced into apologizing for the mistakes for former "prophets" and LDS leaders....
Except that you are missing the context of why it happened. The people of utah were rather shell shocked from the way they were treated in Missouri and in Nauvoo. The persecution was tremendous and this may damage a person's understanding somewhat. To the men who murdered the wagon train, they felt they were being attacked once more. And from their own psychological self preservation, they reacted. If anyone is too blame for what happened at MMM it is the federal govenment and not the traumatized members of the LDS church.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
And if I am not mistaken, at this time there were threats coming from california and other parts located east about going to utah to kill Mormons. But I may be wrong about this. But if I am correct, we can see some utah Mormons just a little bit nervous about outsiders.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
Daniel Peterson wrote:The historical record doesn't seem to support insinuations that the Mountain Meadows Massacre was theologically motivated in any substantial way, let alone that it was somehow dictated by "fundamentalism."
There is no reason to believe that nineteenth-century prophets were responsible in any significant way for the Mountain Meadows Massacre.
It seems ironic to have to remind people here (given the pretensions of the place) that dogma doesn't Trump facts. But, plainly, I do.
Lol...yes, there were no Mormon fundamentalists living in southern utah that believed that avenging the blood of the prophet joseph was part of their religious covenants and i am sure that their self-proclaimed prophet's teachings on "blood atonement" had nothing to do with anything that occurred in MM...It was just a normal everyday activity for people living in southern utah (and surrounding territories) to wake up, dress up like indians and murder 120 innocent people traveling to California...
"any significant way" - means what? they didn't pull the trigger themselves? If so, then i continue to agree with you..."There is no reason to believe that nineteenth-century prophets were responsible in any significant way for the Mountain Meadows Massacre."
....I don't believe Hitler ran any gas chambers himself so I guess he wasn't "responsible in any significant way" for the gassing of Jews in Germany...
"your reasoning that children should be experimented upon to justify a political agenda..is tantamount to the Nazi justification for experimenting on human beings."-SUBgenius on gay parents "I've stated over and over again on this forum and fully accept that I'm a bigot..." - ldsfaqs
why me wrote:Except that you are missing the context of why it happened. The people of utah were rather shell shocked from the way they were treated in Missouri and in Nauvoo. The persecution was tremendous and this may damage a person's understanding somewhat. To the men who murdered the wagon train, they felt they were being attacked once more. And from their own psychological self preservation, they reacted. If anyone is too blame for what happened at MMM it is the federal govenment and not the traumatized members of the LDS church.
oh, well, if they "felt like they were being attacked" then its ok that they killed a bunch of innocent people (including women and children)...those little kids must have been terrifying and intimidating to all those armed Mormon men...
"your reasoning that children should be experimented upon to justify a political agenda..is tantamount to the Nazi justification for experimenting on human beings."-SUBgenius on gay parents "I've stated over and over again on this forum and fully accept that I'm a bigot..." - ldsfaqs
schreech wrote:oh, well, if they "felt like they were being attacked" then its ok that they killed a bunch of innocent people (including women and children)...those little kids must have been terrifying and intimidating to all those armed Mormon men...
Why aren't you jumping all over anti-Mormons here for the Haun's Mill incident?
Oh that's right, you are an anti-Mormon, and an anonymous bigot to boot!
Simon Belmont wrote:Why aren't you jumping all over anti-Mormons here for the Haun's Mill incident?
Oh that's right, you are an anti-Mormon, and an anonymous bigot to boot!
Oh...i thought this thread was about MM...yes the idiot rednecks who shot the Mormons at haun's mill are no better than the disgusting Mormon murderers who killed 120 people at MM. Now, put your nose back into pahorans butt, go back to blindly defending all things momo and f#&%-off...Thanks!
"your reasoning that children should be experimented upon to justify a political agenda..is tantamount to the Nazi justification for experimenting on human beings."-SUBgenius on gay parents "I've stated over and over again on this forum and fully accept that I'm a bigot..." - ldsfaqs
So someone help me out and explain what more the Church's apology could have contained. If my ancestors were slave owners, should I apologise for that? I suppose I could feel sorrow for it, and express that, but how does it directly implicate me?
August 4, 1993. Chief Cabinet Secretary Yōhei Kōno. "Undeniably, this was an act, with the involvement of the military authorities of the day, that severely injured the honor and dignity of many women. The Government of Japan would like to take this opportunity once again to extend its sincere apologies and remorse to all those, irrespective of place of origin, who suffered immeasurable pain and incurable physical and psychological wounds as comfort women" (Statement by the Chief Cabinet Secretary Yohei Kono on the result of the study on the issue of "comfort women")
(Emphasis added)
"We express profound regret for the massacre carried out in this valley 150 years ago today, and for the undue and untold suffering experienced by the victims then and by their relatives to the present time," Elder Eyring said.
Daniel Peterson wrote:Why should "the Church" apologize?
Did "the Church" do it?
Since I find it hard to imagine an event of this character or magnitude happening at that time outside of the context it happened, I'd say yes. Remove the church from the story and you remove the event from taking place.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth? ~ Eiji Yoshikawa
honorentheos wrote:Since I find it hard to imagine an event of this character or magnitude happening at that time outside of the context it happened, I'd say yes. Remove the church from the story and you remove the event from taking place.
Are modern Germans responsible for Nazi Germany? Are modern Japanese responsible for Imperial Japan? Are modern Australians responsible for Aboriginal mistreatment?