stemelbow wrote:That's am assumptions I just can't buy, Themis.
I understand that you do not buy it, but how can some method give realible information if you cannot even put it into words. Now I understand this because I used to think and say the same things as a way to get around the hard questions.
So the LDS position is this (it seems): Pray and see if God will "show" you truth.
It seems apparent to me many don't find that an adequate way to determine truth.
You can't even describe how it is an adequate way to determine truth.
But how are the tools (scientific method and such) developed to figure out that which we can see, or detect going to translate to determine the existence of something we can't see or detect, like God?
The same way science has discovered many things we canot see or detect at one time. Science is reapeatable. You used carbon dating as an example, which is very realiable. Now anyone can learn how to use it to date carbon remains properly will get similar dates. This is not true with the pray and ask God. I see many members who are very faithful use the method on things that can be tested like business opportunities and such and get it wrong just as often as those who don't. Infact they may ge it wrong more often becasue I think the spiritual expereince is essentially internally generated and so will give you in most cases the result you want. What this does is override their good sense that would have stopped them into thinking God said yes.
I'll just have to say spiritual experiences are verified by more spiritual experiences.
Do you see just how circular this thinking is. I asked for a specific example. What I mean is not a real example from your life or anyone else you know, but just a made up example. This should not be to hard. I guess in my believeing days I would have said getting a spiritual experience while praying or reading say the Book of Mormon. The problem here is of course that the body can provide this if trained over time and repetition to provide it reliably, and I think that is exactly what you are saying, even if you may disaggree. :)
Thus, when I receive a spiritual experience, or when I have received particular ones in the past, I'm able to find verification of these by having them confirmed through more experiences that in some way confirm the messages received through the first. I truly do think this is a tough process.
Some of your previous posts were more informative. I think your last one was more a dodge, but then as members we are trained somewhat to do this. The problem i see here is that the message is just ones interpretation of the event. If one is reading or praying/meditating about scientology would they not get the message that it is true. How is this any different then you or me doing the same thing with Mormonism.
I have my own personal dealings that no one else can see and no one else can fully understand or appreciate.
Everyone does, but even then I do find that we can share then to some degree. I find talking that fellow members tend to open up more with people they also think have the same beliefs, especially if family or friends. From this I have not gotten anything that would not fit under our own bodies potential to produce by itself. I mean if we can produce vioces, hallucinate, etc, why not.
If God seeks to work with the individual, then its incumbant upon the individual to trust in that work.
You have already admitted you do not know if it is God who is communicating to you. You said you just have faith or trust that it is, but this really doesn't seeem very good since many will do the same with their God/s, scientology, etc. This really is a blind faith, so it should not be surprising why many do trust the scientific method when it has proven to be significantly more relaible in proving information about the world around us, so when my spiritual is in conflict with the physical evidence, I tend to think I am wrong and need to change my beliefs. Would God, if he exists as a thinking entity want us to do otherwise. That would seem a little stupid and unwise to me.
But in this, as I've tried to explain, I don't' think its some wholly un-taintable method. its just the best method chosen by God.
But again you don't know that. This is just what you have been taught. I think people have just figured out that this is the best way to get people to belief without good evidence and the emotional/spiritual is the best in keeping people loyal to ther beliefs and group.
And to think its all about trying to get each and every one of us to reach deep inside ourselves so much so that we extend ourselves to a higher power seems refreshing to me.
This is just what you want to believe, so it is refreshing to you. I did the same at one time.
Its like there's a key to unlock truths that everyone has. Its a matter of learning how to key works.
So why so much conflict aboput what is true? Even you cannot use it to check on truths that are testable.
In every case I've been involved with concerning potential converts, I've remained quite vague about the specifics for two reasons--1. I can't put my personal experiences into words, appropriately, and
So why can other people do it.
2. I'm open to the diea that it all works, in terms of the details differently for different folks
Again it just people getting usually the interpretation they want from a multitude of different positive expereinces or negative ones that they would call spiritual(for the positive ones).