Should the Church apologise for Mountain Meadows Massacre?

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Should the Church apologise for Mountain Meadows Massacre?

 
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_Pahoran
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Re: Should the Church apologize for Mountain Meadows Massacre?

Post by _Pahoran »

Buffalo wrote:
Pahoran wrote:Call for references, please. If you are asserting that the memorial was torn down and rebuilt in Brigham's time, I'd like to see some documentation for that.

Wilford Woodruff was present on the same occasion as Dudley Leavitt was. Interestingly, the haters frequently prefer his version of Brigham's words over Leavitt's, but they completely ignore the fact that he recorded no desecration of the monument.

The claim that Brigham was gloating over the murder the immigrants is a malicious, spiteful lie.

Just so you know.

Regards,
Pahoran


The source for both the part about the memorial being torn down and rebuilt multiple times, as well as the BY quote, is Dr. Gene Sessions, LDS author and former president of the Mountain Meadows Association.

http://mormonexpression.com/2010/03/11/ ... -sessions/

I know all about the BY quote. I also know that it does not mean what shameless haters pretend that it means.

I do not sit around watching videos or listening to audio material. What dates does Sessions give for the destructions and rebuildings of the memorial?

Regards,
Pahoran
_Buffalo
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Re: Should the Church apologize for Mountain Meadows Massacre?

Post by _Buffalo »

Pahoran wrote:
Buffalo wrote:The source for both the part about the memorial being torn down and rebuilt multiple times, as well as the BY quote, is Dr. Gene Sessions, LDS author and former president of the Mountain Meadows Association.

http://mormonexpression.com/2010/03/11/ ... -sessions/

I know all about the BY quote. I also know that it does not mean what shameless haters pretend that it means.

I do not sit around watching videos or listening to audio material. What dates does Sessions give for the destructions and rebuildings of the memorial?

Regards,
Pahoran


Are you calling Dr. Gene Sessions a shameless hater now? Because I'm presenting the quote the same way Dr. Sessions did.

Listen to the podcast and find out. I gave you the reference, do your own research.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Pahoran
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Re: Should the Church apologize for Mountain Meadows Massacre?

Post by _Pahoran »

Morley wrote:
Pahoran wrote:No, of course not.

There are scum people, I mean some people, who advocate that the "Vengeance is mine and I have taken a little" comment refers to Brigham himself taking vengeance upon the MMM victims. The reality is that he was commenting upon the inscription made on the orders of Major Carleton: "Vengeance is mine saith the Lord and I will repay." This was a thinly-veiled threat against all Mormons then living in Utah territory and elsewhere.

Furthermore, while Dudley Leavitt claimed that the cairn was dismantled because Brigham gave some kind of non-verbal order, the fact is that other witnesses present on the occasion did not report such a destruction and still others saw the cairn still standing later on. Note that Leavitt was a massacre participant and had a motive to claim that Brigham was unsympathetic to the victims.

Pahoran, apparently I'm kind of unschooled in this. As you understand it, what revenge did Brigham Young take, when he said, "Vengeance is mine and I have taken a little," if, indeed, he didn't have the cairn torn down?

That's the whole point. Brigham wasn't referring to himself as having taken revenge at all.

When Major Henry Carleton, an anti-Mormon as rabid as any here (and that is saying something) had the cairn constructed, he included an inscription that was a clear threat against the Latter-day Saints: "Vengeance is mine saith the Lord and I will repay." This is taken from Romans 12:19 and is a clear (though common) misapplication of that scripture. The real meaning is that vengeance belongs exclusively to the Lord, therefore we should not be seeking it. Brigham, who understood the correct application of that verse, as well as clearly perceiving the hostile intent of the inscription, chose to comment upon that.

Not the massacre; the inscription.

There is no evidence that Brigham objected in any way to the existence of the cairn or any other grave marker; but I doubt he liked the inscription.

I find it telling also that Leavitt, acting as an apologist for the perpetrators, could not claim that Brigham actually ordered the cairn destroyed. Rather, he claimed that Brigham made some gesture which he and his fellow-culpables chose to interpret as such.

Regards,
Pahoran
_Pahoran
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Re: Should the Church apologize for Mountain Meadows Massacre?

Post by _Pahoran »

Buffalo wrote:
Pahoran wrote:I know all about the BY quote. I also know that it does not mean what shameless haters pretend that it means.

I do not sit around watching videos or listening to audio material. What dates does Sessions give for the destructions and rebuildings of the memorial?

Regards,
Pahoran

Are you calling Dr. Gene Sessions a shameless hater now? Because I'm presenting the quote the same way Dr. Sessions did.

But are you interpreting it as he did?

This is the second time that you have wilfully misrepresented my position on these matters. When liars abuse sources for anti-Mormon purposes, it does not make those sources anti-Mormon.

But I think you already knew that.

Buffalo wrote:Listen to the podcast and find out. I gave you the reference, do your own research.

I'll find a transcript and read it.

Regards,
Pahoran
_Morley
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Re: Should the Church apologize for Mountain Meadows Massacre?

Post by _Morley »

Pahoran wrote:
The memorial was built, torn down, rebuilt, and torn down again.

Call for references, please. If you are asserting that the memorial was torn down and rebuilt in Brigham's time, I'd like to see some documentation for that.
.....



A Wikipedia article having to do with the memorial (Remembrances of the Mountain Meadows massacre) seems to say the monument was built, destroyed, and rebuilt. Some of this happened during Brigham's time. It also says, "Sally Denton, in her book, records Young as saying 'Vengeance is mine, and I have taken a little' before having the monument torn down."*

*Sally Denton (2003). American Massacre: The Tragedy at Mountain Meadows, September 1857 (New York: Vintage Books, ISBN 0375726365) p. 210.
_Pahoran
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Re: Should the Church apologize for Mountain Meadows Massacre?

Post by _Pahoran »

Morley wrote:A Wikipedia article having to do with the memorial (Remembrances of the Mountain Meadows massacre) seems to say the monument was built, destroyed, and rebuilt. Some of this happened during Brigham's time. It also says, "Sally Denton, in her book, records Young as saying 'Vengeance is mine, and I have taken a little' before having the monument torn down."*

*Sally Denton (2003). American Massacre: The Tragedy at Mountain Meadows, September 1857 (New York: Vintage Books, ISBN 0375726365) p. 210.

Yes, I'm well aware of Denton's book. There are better sources available. The fact that Brigham said those words (or something like them) is not in dispute.

Regards,
Pahoran
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Should the Church apologise for Mountain Meadows Massacre?

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Buffalo wrote:I guess Pres. Eyring is a bigger man than DCP and Yahoo Bot.

That's certainly true. In fact, most people are better than I am. (It would be a sorry and pathetic mortal who wasn't.)

But, since I'm completely happy with what President Eyring said, and since what he said is entirely consistent with what I've been saying, I don't think that you can demonstrate his superiority to me from his statement about the Mountain Meadows Massacre.
_MsJack
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Re: Should the Church apologise for Mountain Meadows Massacre?

Post by _MsJack »

liz3564 wrote:This sounds like an apology to me. What more do the families want, and what are folks here looking for?

LDS church spokesman Mark Tuttle clarified that Eyring's statement was not an apology and should not be understood as such:

Church leaders were adamant that [Eyring's] statement should not be construed as an apology. "We don't use the word 'apology.' We used 'profound regret,'" church spokesman Mark Tuttle told The Associated Press.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/200 ... 7941_x.htm
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_Willy Law
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Re: Should the Church apologise for Mountain Meadows Massacre?

Post by _Willy Law »

Daniel Peterson wrote:But, since I'm completely happy with what President Eyring said, and since what he said is entirely consistent with what I've been saying, .


I think we are all stunned that your views would mimic the brethren.
It is my province to teach to the Church what the doctrine is. It is your province to echo what I say or to remain silent.
Bruce R. McConkie
_Willy Law
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Re: Should the Church apologise for Mountain Meadows Massacre?

Post by _Willy Law »

Willy Law wrote:
Daniel Peterson wrote:But, since I'm completely happy with what President Eyring said, and since what he said is entirely consistent with what I've been saying, .


I think we are all stunned that your views would mimic the brethren.


Especially from someone that repeats this quote in the Deseret News:
'My boy, you always keep your eye on the president of the church and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.' Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, 'But you don't need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray.'"

Very apropos and revealing given the current MMM thread. If the prophet tells you to do something you do it, even if it is wrong.
It is my province to teach to the Church what the doctrine is. It is your province to echo what I say or to remain silent.
Bruce R. McConkie
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