Showdown: 1st Vision vs. PJ&J visit

[_zeezrom]

I mentioned my opinion that the 1st Vision is not nearly as important as the visit made by Peter James and John. Some people were surprised.

It's time for a showdown.

Let's discuss the theological and doctrinal contributions of each event and then compare. Let's weigh them as contributors to the foundation of Mormonism. Feel free to weigh in.

First Vision:

What idea did this establish? Did it establish the doctrine of God having a body? What about the idea that the Godhead is made up of two separate beings? Did this event set anything in motion? Anything? This event is really amazing. It sounds really huge. But what if it never happened? Could the church function? Would prophets be able to receive revelation? Would Joseph be able to learn about the true nature of God without seeing them at the age of 14(?). Joseph produced many ideas without have God visit him and explain them to him. I think the church would be just fine without it.

Peter James and John visit Joseph Smith and OC:

What did this establish? That authority needs to be passed down from the original church? Did this event lay the foundation of the Restoration? Did this event set anything on motion? Yes! It is considered the founding event that establishes the power of God on the earth. It sets in motion the entire structure of the church. The priesthood authority is amazingly important to the Mormon religion.

[_Joseph]

What is telling about the mysterious 'priesthood restoration' is that the three living Apostles walking the earth had no part in it. John was involved, the two other living apostles were ignored. Maybe because they aren't worth anything compared to the original guys? Maybe because they associated with 'lamanites'?

Who knows?

Either way, ignoring the three still around and not telling anyone of the three that supposedly gave this higher authority for about five years - it all sounds like a made up bunch of horse manure.

Just like the evolving first vision, the story took time to fabricate.

After all, Joey & his buddy were 'elders' with this shifting office later moving up to the higher priesthood. Why don't we have moronicpriesthood elders today? Lying about things makes it hard as they have to try and remember who they told what to and when. You see it with the hinckster and is interviews. tubbietommy is playing it safe by saying little other than his dopey widow stories and very general sappy crap in conference. Don't think you will see him getting caught like the hinkster did in denying core doctrines of l-dsinc.

[_why me]

I mentioned my opinion that the 1st Vision is not nearly as important as the visit made by Peter James and John. Some people were surprised.

It's time for a showdown.

Let's discuss the theological and doctrinal contributions of each event and then compare. Let's weigh them as contributors to the foundation of Mormonism. Feel free to weigh in.

First Vision:

What idea did this establish? Did it establish the doctrine of God having a body? What about the idea that the Godhead is made up of two separate beings? Did this event set anything in motion? Anything? This event is really amazing. It sounds really huge. But what if it never happened? Could the church function? Would prophets be able to receive revelation? Would Joseph be able to learn about the true nature of God without seeing them at the age of 14(?). Joseph produced many ideas without have God visit him and explain them to him. I think the church would be just fine without it.

Peter James and John visit Joseph Smith and OC:

What did this establish? That authority needs to be passed down from the original church? Did this event lay the foundation of the Restoration? Did this event set anything on motion? Yes! It is considered the founding event that establishes the power of God on the earth. It sets in motion the entire structure of the church. The priesthood authority is amazingly important to the Mormon religion.

The corner stone of the LDS faith is the Book of Mormon. All else doesn't really matter if this book is false. Now if this book is true, then all else falls into place. Thus, the main concern in the beginning was not the first vision but the Book of Mormon. Now I must say that if Joseph Smith wrote the book, he certainly had a well planned out idea for the establishment of a new church. And he had a pretty large pair of you know what. First, he develops the first vision idea. Then, comes the Book of Mormon complete with an angel and then comes the 11 witnesses and then comes the establishment of the priesthood complete with visitations by angels who most likely would be responsible for the priesthood restoration if it were true. And then the growth of the church.

Quite a guy if he made it all up.

[_jon]

I mentioned my opinion that the 1st Vision is not nearly as important as the visit made by Peter James and John. Some people were surprised.

It's time for a showdown.

Let's discuss the theological and doctrinal contributions of each event and then compare. Let's weigh them as contributors to the foundation of Mormonism. Feel free to weigh in.

First Vision:

What idea did this establish? Did it establish the doctrine of God having a body? What about the idea that the Godhead is made up of two separate beings? Did this event set anything in motion? Anything? This event is really amazing. It sounds really huge. But what if it never happened? Could the church function? Would prophets be able to receive revelation? Would Joseph be able to learn about the true nature of God without seeing them at the age of 14(?). Joseph produced many ideas without have God visit him and explain them to him. I think the church would be just fine without it.

Peter James and John visit Joseph Smith and OC:

What did this establish? That authority needs to be passed down from the original church? Did this event lay the foundation of the Restoration? Did this event set anything on motion? Yes! It is considered the founding event that establishes the power of God on the earth. It sets in motion the entire structure of the church. The priesthood authority is amazingly important to the Mormon religion.

The corner stone of the LDS faith is the Book of Mormon. All else doesn't really matter if this book is false. Now if this book is true, then all else falls into place. Thus, the main concern in the beginning was not the first vision but the Book of Mormon. Now I must say that if Joseph Smith wrote the book, he certainly had a well planned out idea for the establishment of a new church. And he had a pretty large pair of you know what. First, he develops the first vision idea. Then, comes the Book of Mormon complete with an angel and then comes the 11 witnesses and then comes the establishment of the priesthood complete with visitations by angels who most likely would be responsible for the priesthood restoration if it were true. And then the growth of the church.

Quite a guy if he made it all up.

And you don't attend a Mormon Church because...?

[_Buffalo]

The modern spin on the first vision was that it established that god has a body - if that's true, why was god not taught as having a body until much later? The first vision only because important after the Adam-God fiasco.

[_zeezrom]

Would people agree that the concept of God having a body 1.) required a vision and 2.) is more important than restoration of God's power on the earth?

[_stemelbow]

It seems you have downplayed the First Vision significance, but that's cool. Without the First Vision whose to say the Melch. Priesthood restoration was even possible?

They were both essential pieces. What more needs to be said?

[_zeezrom]

It seems you have downplayed the First Vision significance, but that's cool. Without the First Vision whose to say the Melch. Priesthood restoration was even possible?

They were both essential pieces. What more needs to be said?

I'm not downplaying. I'm trying to put things in perspective.

Your opinion about the first vision being preparatory to the Mel Priesthood is interesting. I'm willing to consider it.

So, God needed to prepare Joseph for the big one? Maybe Joseph would not be able to see the apostles if he hadn't been prepared first? Maybe that's why Oliver could only see "an angel".

[_Inconceivable]

Would people agree that the concept of God having a body 1.) required a vision and 2.) is more important than restoration of God's power on the earth?

The FV doesn't demonstrate that the Mormon God and Mormon Jesus have bodies at all.

Did anyone get a hug? A handshake? Did Joseph Smith hand the Mormon Jesus a fish and watch him eat it?

nope.

No matter how one spins it, fiction is not palpable.

[_Buffalo]

In the mid-1800s, this was the doctrine on God and Jesus:

"They are the Father and the Son: The Father being a personage of spirit, glory, and power, possessing all perfection and fullness. The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, a personage of tabernacle, made or fashioned like unto man, or being in the form and likeness of man" "Only Begotten of the Father possessing the same mind with the Father, which mind is the Holy Spirit" ((JOD 5:2)

And this traces the evolution of the Mormon concept of God:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Mormonism