Philosophy 101: My Argument about Satan

[_zeezrom]

Stak? Where are you?

[_The Nehor]

Your entire argument falls apart when you realize that knowledge (even imperfect knowledge) is a prerequisite of faith.

It is? I thought faith came before knowledge.

Before perfect knowledge.

My whole argument?

Yes.

All three of my premises? All 3 fall apart?

No.

All three premises have to be correct for your whole argument to work. So yes, your whole argument falls apart.

[_Hades]

Satan in just a Bogeyman for adults.

[_zeezrom]

Nehor,

You have a problem with my third premise. We could have saved time if you had just said that.

Regarding number 3: why is faith not a vital ingredient to free agency?

[_The Nehor]

Regarding number 3: why is faith not a vital ingredient to free agency?

It is simply not. Agency existed before the world was.

The argument that it is seems to be based on the idea that if humans had perfect knowledge they would be perfectly rational. They are not. I am convinced there is a God but I do not live entirely rationally based on this knowledge. Many obese people know rationally that their life would be better if they lost weight and exercised but do not.

Rational argument may win a convert but it will only last as long as the devil wishes without faith. This will still be the case when Jesus walks the earth Himself openly showing His power.

Satan revealing the other world openly wouldn't destroy agency in any way, shape, or form.

[_zeezrom]

Nehor,

Please consider Ludlow's last sentence, first paragraph (quoted in the OP). Thoughts?

[_The Nehor]

Nehor,

Please consider Ludlow's last sentence, first paragraph (quoted in the OP). Thoughts?

I am not sure what you are asking.

[_zeezrom]

Nehor,

I can't quote I'm on the iPhone... But in the OP (premise #3), the Ludlow quote says only through faith will the choices we make come from within us.

Choices are completely owned by us and us alone when we use faith. That, I think, is what Ludlow is saying. This seems to be consistent with LDS teachings, doesn't it?

[_LDSToronto]

Thank you LDST! Great criticism. First off, what is a Zeezrom day? I'm guessing it means a day you hear your my wife tell you she's going to wear short shorts for the first time since you dated in college? Because that's what just happened to me. Seriously, I would forego the CK to have a life with my wife in short, white shorts! LOL.

Let me ask you. Are you suggesting that free agency is possible without faith? If God showed up at GC and told everyone the Mormon church is the only true religion, people could still choose to not be Mormon... Is that right? Is it still free agency if God came and told us everything? Just wondering.

A while back you made a few posts that chronicled your Sabbath activities - skiing, etc. Today was my second Sunday where, instead of going to church, I did something awesome with my family. Last week it was the beach, today it was a 40 km bike ride.

I remember you saying something to the effect that it was much more gratifying to spend the time with your family outside church than inside church. After these past few days, I am in agreement. I label these days, Zeezrom Days, in honour of your first few posts where I kinda (shamefully) said, "Well, maybe for him, but church is still pretty important". I've learned. And short shorts and sleeveless tops have been here since we started getting good weather ;)

I think that free agency is completely independent of faith. Imagine your scenario, where God did come down to GC and announced that Mormonism was the way. People could still reject 1) the idea that this is really God and 2) that the Celestial Kingdom is where they want to go. LDS theology states that even the lowest tier kingdom is way better than earth life. At that point, it becomes a matter of economy - what will I give up now in exchange for something later? Maybe I want to drink beer at the BBQ with my neighbours, and that pleasure now will still be rewarded with a pretty good destination later.

Those with faith would probably continue doing what they do, probably with more fervour. And I'll bet a whole raft of people will convert. But, given the nature of human beings, I think a good portion of people will make a trade-off analysis.

Another way to look at it is this way - knowledge does not bind your action. Ever.

H.

[_LDSToronto]

Your entire argument falls apart when you realize that knowledge (even imperfect knowledge) is a prerequisite of faith.

It is? I thought faith came before knowledge.

My whole argument? All three of my premises? All 3 fall apart? Really?

Faith comes before knowledge, and LDS theology states you can only ever have faith with respect to the mysteries of God. See Alma 32. Knowledge is never attainable, because it is believed that faith produces stronger allegiance. So you are correct, Zee.

H.