LDS Nursery lessons changed because people were leaving?

[_Some Schmo]

Of course the church tries to retain members.

I'm not saying they shouldn't try. I'm only questioning their methods for doing so.

And incidently that is appropriate use of the tithes.

Again, depends on the method.

[_Yoda]

Do you consider what it taught in the schools brainwashing as well?

Teachers give their opinion as fact all the time.

When I was in the 7th grade, I had a health teacher who told the whole class that they better go out and buy condoms because more than likely, we would all be sexually active before the end of the school year!

My parents were outraged, by the way, but the man didn't get fired. As far as I know, he's still teaching there...and still telling kids the same thing!

[_Yoda]

Also, Schmo, I'm curious. How is LDS Primary anymore a form of brainwashing than a vacation Bible school?

[_Some Schmo]

Do you consider what it taught in the schools brainwashing as well?

Teachers give their opinion as fact all the time.

Depends on the teacher and what is being taught. I imagine it happens quite a bit.

Teaching kids to think critically for themselves, or leading them toward that paradigm by example is good. And there's nothing wrong with imparting verifiable facts.

Teaching kids to blindly follow a leader on the supposition that he is always right is brainwashing.

When I was in the 7th grade, I had a health teacher who told the whole class that they better go out and buy condoms because more than likely, we would all be sexually active before the end of the school year!

My parents were outraged, by the way, but the man didn't get fired. As far as I know, he's still teaching there...and still telling kids the same thing!

I don't remember saying all teachers are perfect. I'd likely be pretty pissed about this too.

I'm not sure how this anecdote justifies brainwashing toddlers.

Also, Schmo, I'm curious. How is LDS Primary anymore a form of brainwashing than a vacation Bible school?

I don't remember saying it was.

I'm of the opinion it's wrong to teach children any religion as though it's truth (as opposed to letting children know that there's this thing called religion, and that there's a whole buffet of them for kids to choose from once they become adults, if they even want one at all). Kids aren't equipped to call bullsh*t on you, so it ends up being a form of mental abuse, plain and simple (especially the parts that scare children about an imaginary boogeyman who watches everything they do and will send them to an unhappy place for eternity if they don't get it all right).

Kids should be taught sound moral principles, and the best way to do that is to take religion out of the equation.

[_zeezrom]

I didn't learn very much in primary. At least, the things I remember learning didn't involve anything practical. Mostly, I remember sitting in the big room, bored out of my mind, listening to the girls sing. I also recall being bored out of my mind in sacrament meeting. The little primary class was usually okay. Kids just endure it. Not a real big deal.

The bigger stuff starts happening in the youth programs and seminary, in my opinion. That is where people's feelings get involved and ideas are cemented.

[_Some Schmo]

I didn't learn very much in primary. At least, the things I remember learning didn't involve anything practical. Mostly, I remember sitting in the big room, bored out of my mind, listening to the girls sing. I also recall being bored out of my mind in sacrament meeting. The little primary class was usually okay. Kids just endure it. Not a real big deal.

The bigger stuff starts happening in the youth programs and seminary, in my opinion. That is where people's feelings get involved and ideas are cemented.

You probably don't remember learning how to count, speak, spell, or not crap your pants, but that doesn't mean you weren't taught it. And it's those lessons that provided the foundation for everything that came later.

[_Runtu]

Does the church frame it as "brainwashing?" Of course not. That word is loaded.

But I think that if you deny the church tries to retain members through almost any means possible, you're pretty naïve. Just because they don't call it brainwashing or that not everyone is susceptible to it doesn't mean it's not being attempted. Denying that is what's really ludicrous.

Does the church attempt to indoctrinate children? Obviously. I did not deny that.

My point was that it's ridiculous to see the focus on scripture stories as being motivated by a desire to brainwash kids more effectively. It was done because there was a big concern at the COB that lesson manuals were culturally biased toward North Americans. Using the scriptures avoids that, and it also makes it less likely that the manuals will become obviously dated in the near future.

I used to cringe in the nursery when the "song lady" had a kid march while holding up a picture of Gordon Hinckley as the class followed, singing, "Follow the prophet. He knows the way!" That to me was way over the personality cult line. Using scriptures in a Primary manual is not.

[_Yoda]

Kids should be taught sound moral principles, and the best way to do that is to take religion out of the equation.

So...just so we're clear...you are simply against ALL organized religion and its many components...whether it's the Mormons, the Jews, the Catholics, the Baptists, etc.

I can appreciate and understand that view.

However, I do think of myself as a good mother, and I don't believe that I am allowing my child to be "abused" by having him attend Primary, particularly when I'm in there with him, teaching the music.

"Abuse" is a very strong word. As a parent, I'm sure you realize that.

[_Quasimodo]

I was in the nursery for many years, and what The Nehor said was basically right. The kids play with toys, you share a short "message" and that's it.

As a student? It must have been frustrating not graduating with your friends. How old were you when you finally got out?

[_Some Schmo]

Kids should be taught sound moral principles, and the best way to do that is to take religion out of the equation.

So...just so we're clear...you are simply against ALL organized religion and its many components...whether it's the Mormons, the Jews, the Catholics, the Baptists, etc.

In their current manifestations, yes. Some more than others.

I'm trying to imagine a manifestation of religion I wouldn't be against, and I'm having a hard time doing it, but it would at least have to refrain from teaching dogma. It would have to make helping the poor and unfortunate their #1 priority (as opposed to paying it lip service for appearances)... That would be the bare minimum.

I can appreciate and understand that view.

I appreciate your understanding. I also understand that you don't think you're abusing your kids by exposing them to that crap, but I don't agree, unless you're taking meticulous care to undo the indoctrination every time it happens.

However, I do think of myself as a good mother, and I don't believe that I am allowing my child to be "abused" by having him attend Primary, particularly when I'm in there with him, teaching the music.

I don't doubt that you think of yourself as a good mother; I bet that you actually are.

But no parent is perfect, and if you allow your children to be indoctrinated, or even exposed to indoctrination in a demonstrably false religion, then that's an area where your imperfection as a parent reveals itself. I don't know how to sugarcoat that, and I'd like to break it to you as gently as possible because I genuinely like you, liz. But it is what it is.

I have a feeling that a good portion of the emotional and intellectual abuse that happens in parent/child relationships is unintended, by the way.

"Abuse" is a very strong word. As a parent, I'm sure you realize that.

Which is why I have very strong feelings on this particular subject. I don't take it lightly, and I really wish other parents wouldn't either.