Bushman on LDS apologetics: Find the truth about Mormonism

[_Buffalo]

That's apologetics for you. Focus not on the point (the part you actually bolded) and attack a strawman.

Oh, and then for flavor, pretend that the person you're quoting is incoherent, as opposed to the post you just made.

What a dumb ass. It would be funny if it weren't so appallingly stupid.

That's the Vox Mopologia for you.

[_harmony]

You don't know what the Brethren are doing, harmony. You just have a predictable hostile reflex toward them.

Something that she has in common with them.

Hey! I have nothing in common with ... well... the Brethren.

[_Yoda]

How would this sound coming from a young missionary?

"I know, brother Murphy, that if you pray and ask God, you can find truth in Mormonism."

Ummm....Have you read Moroni 10:4?

4And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

I would say that is exactly what the missionaries are doing!

[_zeezrom]

Ummm....Have you read Moroni 10:4?

4And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

I would say that is exactly what the missionaries are doing!

I see what you mean but I didn't take it that way.

Moroni's phrase, "he will manifest the truth of it unto you..." comes across to me as meaning:

"The book is true. God will help you find that it really is true."

The Bushman comment seems to have a different meaning. This is more of, "Somewhere, you will find some truth in the Mormon religion. Go search and you should find some."

[_Yoda]

Ummm....Have you read Moroni 10:4?

4And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

I would say that is exactly what the missionaries are doing!

I see what you mean but I didn't take it that way.

Moroni's phrase, "he will manifest the truth of it unto you..." comes across to me as meaning:

"The book is true. God will help you find that it really is true."

The Bushman comment seems to have a different meaning. This is more of, "Somewhere, you will find some truth in the Mormon religion. Go search and you should find some."

I don't see, though, how your comment about what missionaries tell people, and what Moroni's promise says are any different.

Did Bushman say that you should pray to find the truth in Mormonism in his book? I haven't read it yet, so I honestly don't know exactly what quote you are referring to.

However, my understanding is that Bushman is an active member of the LDS Church, and a believer, in spite of many of his controversial topics in RSR. That being the case, I would think that if he stated that you should pray about the truthfulness of the gospel, he is, in fact, echoing Moroni's promise.

[_rich kelsey]

I really like quoting Richard Bushman. The man has a writing style that is informative, yet easy to understand for the average man. I have three quotes from him in my articles so far; here is one example from page 12 of Those Mysterious Golden Plates:

Historical Difficulties — one long attempt at fraud:

“This, then, is the historical difficulty of the plates. Accounts of hiding the plates, wrapping the plates with cloth, showing the plates and translating from the plates become nothing more than one long attempt at fraud and make everything else Joseph Smith did doubtful. ‘Like a beggar claiming to have a diamond that he allows nobody to see,’ … So in the plates we have joined the two characterizations of Joseph Smith, ‘the fraud and the prophet, with the plates as the hinge between the two.’" (Statements from Richard Bushman - Book of Mormon Archaeological Forum's Conference, Oct. 23, 2010)

Conclusion:

Over the years Joseph Smith’s stories have been re-written to standards which people can, and do, put their faith in. Yet, how many investigators would ask God in prayer about the truthfulness of Smith’s stories if they only had early versions to base their findings upon?

Link: http://richkelsey.org/STORY%204.htm#_ednref76

[_zeezrom]

I don't see, though, how your comment about what missionaries tell people, and what Moroni's promise says are any different.

Did Bushman say that you should pray to find the truth in Mormonism in his book? I haven't read it yet, so I honestly don't know exactly what quote you are referring to.

However, my understanding is that Bushman is an active member of the LDS Church, and a believer, in spite of many of his controversial topics in RSR. That being the case, I would think that if he stated that you should pray about the truthfulness of the gospel, he is, in fact, echoing Moroni's promise.

Hi Liz,

Let me back up a bit here.

The quote (as stated in the OP) by Rosebud is: "not an aim to prove Mormonism true, but rather to find the truth about Mormonism."

This comment seems to imply that while there is truth in Mormonism, it is not inherently "true" as a whole. This is just my interpretation and I could be wrong, for I cannot know exactly what Rosebud meant without asking him in person. As a missionary, I always told people they could find out for themselves that certain ideas are true. I believed these ideas were absolute and inherently true. Our job was to simply find out if they were indeed true or not. My job never seemed to be to find the truth nuggets laying scattered around a wilderness of superstitions and fables. Sure, there are problems and issues here and there, but I think the idea is that in general, the church is true, the Book of Mormon is true, Joseph Smith is a true prophet. That kind of thing.

What I see in Moroni 10:5 is a promise that a person can receive a confirmation that something is already true. They might have doubted whether it was true before but after applying Moroni's promise, they realized it was true all along.

This is different than looking in a dark forest trying to find little "truth chipmunks" running around.

[_Simon Belmont]

Conclusion:

Over the years Joseph Smith’s stories have been re-written to standards which people can, and do, put their faith in. Yet, how many investigators would ask God in prayer about the truthfulness of Smith’s stories if they only had early versions to base their findings upon?

LOL

[_Doctor Scratch]

for what it's worth, I think that Bushman represents a much, *much* more positive example of apologetics. He's clearly interested in the truth; he understands the difficulties of the Church's past; he believes in defending the Church without the sort of vicious antics that have for so long characterized the Folks in Charge at the Maxwell Institute. I understand his quote to mean that he wants inquiry in the Church to be more like it was during Arrington's reign over "Camelot"---i.e., that there is more openness to curiosity and exploration, less caginess and paranoia among the ranks, etc.

[_The Nehor]

Hey! I have nothing in common with ... well... the Brethren.

This I agree with.