George Gilder and the likeminded

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_Buffalo
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Re: George Gilder and the likeminded

Post by _Buffalo »

Some Schmo wrote:
Buffalo wrote:Droopy, no one is buying your propaganda.

Some of us don't even bother to read it any more. There's nothing redeeming about it.

It's important to understand the salient points your opposition makes. The problem with Droopy is that he never makes them, so you can just skip him as a source.


Droopy is the ultimate word salad shooter.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Droopy
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Re: George Gilder and the likeminded

Post by _Droopy »

Buffalo wrote:Droopy, no one is buying your propaganda. ID is re-branded creationism in an attempt to sneak religion into the classroom.

http://ncse.com/book/export/html/109


As usual, you cannot engage a substantive argument, and have no critical analytical skills with which to lock horns with any dilemma were you even to desire to do so.

Move along...
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

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_Buffalo
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Re: George Gilder and the likeminded

Post by _Buffalo »

Droopy wrote:
Buffalo wrote:Droopy, no one is buying your propaganda. ID is re-branded creationism in an attempt to sneak religion into the classroom.

http://ncse.com/book/export/html/109


As usual, you cannot engage a substantive argument, and have no critical analytical skills with which to lock horns with any dilemma were you even to desire to do so.

Move along...


As usual, Droopy's reaction to actual factual evidence is reminiscent of a vampire's reaction to the cross.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Droopy
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Re: George Gilder and the likeminded

Post by _Droopy »


As usual, Droopy's reaction to actual factual evidence is reminiscent of a vampire's reaction to the cross.



Uhh...I saw a screed aimed at George Gilder, not any "factual evidence" laid out for consideration. The arguments, to the extent any were made, were utterly superficial in nature.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Buffalo
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Re: George Gilder and the likeminded

Post by _Buffalo »

Droopy wrote:

As usual, Droopy's reaction to actual factual evidence is reminiscent of a vampire's reaction to the cross.



Uhh...I saw a screed aimed at George Gilder, not any "factual evidence" laid out for consideration. The arguments, to the extent any were made, were utterly superficial in nature.


The deliberate rebranding of a creationist textbook into an ID textbook is as damning as it gets.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Droopy
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Re: George Gilder and the likeminded

Post by _Droopy »

Buffalo wrote:
As usual, Droopy's reaction to actual factual evidence is reminiscent of a vampire's reaction to the cross.



Uhh...I saw a screed aimed at George Gilder, not any "factual evidence" laid out for consideration. The arguments, to the extent any were made, were utterly superficial in nature.[/quote]

The deliberate rebranding of a creationist textbook into an ID textbook is as damning as it gets.[/quote]


Creationists certainly believe in "intelligent design" by definition, but many in the intelligent design movement do not believe in "creation" in the sense in which Protestant fundamentalists believe in it, and many are not theistic at all, or hold to some form of Deism.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_EAllusion
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Re: George Gilder and the likeminded

Post by _EAllusion »

All Intelligent Design arguments exist entirely intact or are prefigured in the creationist literature. Most major ID advocates, and all significant ones above a certain age, were once self-described as creationists who advocated the same arguments as ID, only labeled as creationism. The Intelligent Design textbook that the Dover trial was over was a creationist textbook called "Creation Biology" that simply scrubbed out references to creationists and creationism and replaced 'em with intelligent design proponents and intelligent design after creationism was declared unconstitutional to teach in public schools in 1987. As was alluded to upthread, in one humorous example a draft of the text had accidentally had the term "cdesignproponists" in it, thus leaving us a transitional form. The rest of the text, including the arguments once labeled creationism, now ID, were left basically the same. There is every reason to believe that ID is essentially creationism relabeled for rhetorical and legal purposes.


--------------------------------------------------



Natural selection claims that, to the degree an organism actually survives to pass on its genetic material to successive generations...they, well, survive to pass on their DNA to successive generations. All the rest of the verbiage regarding "probability" and some features of living things being "more conducive" to such passing on of genetic material is nothing more than details within the same basic conceptual framework


For whatever reason, I initially read this as as a CC post and was going to pounce on it. Now, I'm less enthused. Anyway...

Natural selection is the notion that heritable traits more conducive to survival and reproduction are more likely to propagate through time. This isn't a logically necessary truth, but in the world we live in it is true. Gilder adopts the old canard that survival of the fittest just defines the fittest in terms of those who survive. But this isn't correct. While fitness impacts the odds of of an organism's survival, luck still plays a role to varying degrees. A better camouflaged animal still might succumb to a disease while its less hidden brother lives on.

One of my favorite quips is that baseball exists to provide metaphors to explain everything else. So I think I'll explain this in terms of baseball.

Suppose I assert that the most talented teams are those most likely to win over time. You reply that this is tautological because I circularly define "most talent" as those who end up winning. But that's not true. By "most talent" I mean having pitchers with the sharpest stuff, hitters with swings that are likely to produce high OPS, fielders with the largest natural range, etc. If you were to take a snapshot on any given day, the most talented teams aren't necessarily those who won the games. Toronto beat the Yankees last night, but the less talented team won. Over the course of a full season, you'll find that generally speaking more talented teams have won more games than the less talented. It is true that at the end of the season your biggest clue as to who is the most talented can by found by looking at the record books, but that doesn't determine the answer; it is a consequence of it.

Such it is with natural selection. In the famous longitudinal finch studies you neglected to read about, there is careful measurement of environmental changes and analysis of how that would impact the efficiency of beak lengths followed by empirical demonstration of beak lengths changing in the population as a consequence of food availability. What was "fit" wasn't described as just whatever would survive, but what would be conducive to it. Natural selection was predicted.
_EAllusion
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Re: George Gilder and the likeminded

Post by _EAllusion »

Droopy wrote:
Creationists certainly believe in "intelligent design" by definition, but many in the intelligent design movement do not believe in "creation" in the sense in which Protestant fundamentalists believe in it, and many are not theistic at all, or hold to some form of Deism.
I can't think of one notable ID advocate who doesn't believe in God (Berlinski, despite his constant defense of IDists, insists he does not believe in ID), and I can only think of one deist. And that is debatable all things considered. Have fun naming "many."

Tell you what. I'll name 10 conservative Christian IDists for every one deist you name. Let's see how long you can keep up.

Micheal Behe
Johnathan Wells (Unification Church)
William Dembski
Charles Thaxton
Nancy Pearcey
Philip Johnson
Stephen Meyer
Bruce Chapman
Dean Kenyon
Percival Davis
Robert Koons
Richard Weikart
John West
Jay Richards
Paul Nelson
Albert Mohler
J.P. Moreland
Lee Strobel
Marcus Ross
Robert J. Marks II

Ok. Aaaaaand Go.

---------------

Reuland's points weren't superficial by the way. I guess that's all you can muster what with the tautological debacle and George Gilder simply being flat wrong about what he was talking about.
_harmony
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Re: George Gilder and the likeminded

Post by _harmony »

EAllusion wrote:Micheal Behe
Johnathan Wells (Unification Church)
William Dembski
Charles Thaxton
Nancy Pearcey
Philip Johnson
Stephen Meyer
Bruce Chapman
Dean Kenyon
Percival Davis
Robert Koons
Richard Weikart
John West
Jay Richards
Paul Nelson
Albert Mohler
J.P. Moreland
Lee Strobel
Marcus Ross
Robert J. Marks II


I noticed those are all men with the exception of Nancy Pearcey. Male dominance rears its ugly head again. Although maybe women are just smarter, so stay clear of ID.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Milesius
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Re: George Gilder and the likeminded

Post by _Milesius »

harmony wrote:
EAllusion wrote:Micheal Behe
Johnathan Wells (Unification Church)
William Dembski
Charles Thaxton
Nancy Pearcey
Philip Johnson
Stephen Meyer
Bruce Chapman
Dean Kenyon
Percival Davis
Robert Koons
Richard Weikart
John West
Jay Richards
Paul Nelson
Albert Mohler
J.P. Moreland
Lee Strobel
Marcus Ross
Robert J. Marks II


I noticed those are all men with the exception of Nancy Pearcey. Male dominance rears its ugly head again. Although maybe women are just smarter, so stay clear of ID.


Issues has an issue and she won't rest until it becomes your issue, too. Even when she's not talking about her issue it's clear she would rather be talking about her issue. Something of a secular evangelist, he religion, her raison d'etre, her abiding passion is....well, her issue. Not exclusive to any ideological orientation, her issue could be the environment, abortion rights, raw foods, breast feeding, whatever. Her obsession, however, provides the key to defeating her in battle; she can't tolerate indifference, so if her thrusts are simply ignored she will rage, accuse, condemn, plead and finally, go away.
Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei
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