Counter-Evidence Regarding Joseph Smith and Plural Marriage

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_Nevo
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Re: Counter-Evidence Regarding Joseph Smith and Plural Marriage

Post by _Nevo »

Runtu wrote:Joseph Smith married (in the fullest sense of the word) women and girls without the knowledge and consent of his wife, Emma. He made an effort to conceal these marriages from her.... These facts are beyond dispute, and I think they speak rather poorly of Joseph Smith's character.

I don't dispute the fact that Joseph Smith concealed from Emma the full extent of his practice of polygamy. But I question whether this necessarily speaks poorly of his character.

I believe that Joseph believed that he was divinely commanded to practice polygamy. But I think he also saw clearly that following this divine imperative would create enormous hurt and resentment on the part of Emma. Joseph--hoping against hope, no doubt--sought Emma's blessing at one point, but it was short-lived. Emma had shared her husband with others, indeed the whole church, for almost their entire marriage. It was too much for her to share him with other wives too--including trusted friends. Surely Joseph wished to avoid domestic strife (he abhorred contention), but I think he also wished to spare Emma's feelings (as much as possible). After all, he loved her.

So he left her out of it. To my way of thinking, to do otherwise, to have involved Emma in every detail of his polygamous relations--or worse, to have taken wives openly and exposed Emma to public shame--would have been heartless and cruel. As it was, their marriage was severely strained by the ordeal.

So, although regrettable, I don't know that Joseph's actions here were necessarily wrong. They may have been (D&C 132:56 refers to unspecified "trespasses" against Emma), but I can't say with certainty that they were.
_Themis
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Re: Counter-Evidence Regarding Joseph Smith and Plural Marriage

Post by _Themis »

Nevo wrote:I believe that Joseph believed that he was divinely commanded to practice polygamy. But I think he also saw clearly that following this divine imperative would create enormous hurt and resentment on the part of Emma.


Maybe all she needed was an angel with a flaming sword. I think this would have made things much better. At least God had the decency to send an angel to Joseph telling him Mary had not been sleeping around.

So he left her out of it. To my way of thinking, to do otherwise, to have involved Emma in every detail of his polygamous relations--or worse, to have taken wives openly and exposed Emma to public shame--would have been heartless and cruel.


Why? BY didn't have a hard time going public after he felt safe in Utah in the 1850's.
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_harmony
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Re: Counter-Evidence Regarding Joseph Smith and Plural Marriage

Post by _harmony »

Nevo wrote:I believe that Joseph believed that he was divinely commanded to practice polygamy.


I don't. I believe Joseph got caught with his pants around his ankles (figuretively...) and figured out the quickest way to escape the consequences of his actions.

"God made me do it" is a pretty handy excuse for a man with Joseph's track record.

How do YOU explain Fanny, Nevo?
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Nightlion
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Re: Counter-Evidence Regarding Joseph Smith and Plural Marriage

Post by _Nightlion »

Runtu wrote:
Does his concealing his sexual relationships from Emma invalidate his prophetic calling? Not necessarily. But when I stopped making excuses for this, I realized all the other excuses I was making for Joseph and his church.

Rather than begin my own thread in defense of Joseph Smith let me just post here my 2 cents.

Joseph Smith taught the gospel of Jesus Christ. Nobody else living could.
He receive revelations that advanced knowledge ONLY the chosen will ever realize. LDS have rejected the gospel Joseph Smith received of God. If they had received it Zion would dominate our world.

If he had never married another but Emma the world would still be rejecting Joseph Smith for grandiosity, bank failure, bankruptcy, getting drunk when he was a teenager. It is your own nagging hypocrisy's itch that you are trying to scratch.

Same for hating God. You brought that disposition with you into this world. Think about it. If our intelligence was not pre-programmed we would each be the dumbest cubes imaginable as children. Really, think about it. If we only began to think from our birth how do we account for our complexity and fantastic learning ability? I know you refuse to consider such things. Because you told yourself to hate these things for four billion years while you waited to come here. In your heart you did because you feared knowing how badly you would fail.

God knew what you were thinking all the while. That is why he had to set up this sieve to sift you and prove you out. One third only needed to be freed from the Light of Truth to rebel. Most of you needed some coaxing before you manifested your enmity with God.
The Apocalrock Manifesto and Wonders of Eternity: New Mormon Theology
https://www.docdroid.net/KDt8RNP/the-apocalrock-manifesto.pdf
https://www.docdroid.net/IEJ3KJh/wonders-of-eternity-2009.pdf
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_bcspace
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Re: Counter-Evidence Regarding Joseph Smith and Plural Marriage

Post by _bcspace »

I'd start by asking for evidence of 1 and 2; what are the sources and how reliable are they. And I'm not talking about compilation sources, I want the actual source.

Why don't you skip a step, saving Runtu the trouble of digging up sources you won't read anyway, and get directly to the point where the apostates are simply lying and the proof isn't really proof?


Because I have an open mind and am willing to consider evidence and because I'd rather have evidence of lying before I make a specific accusation. However, you can be assured that all antiMormons lie in their antiMormonism as per my many years long experience.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_Runtu
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Re: Counter-Evidence Regarding Joseph Smith and Plural Marriage

Post by _Runtu »

bcspace wrote:Because I have an open mind and am willing to consider evidence and because I'd rather have evidence of lying before I make a specific accusation. However, you can be assured that all antiMormons lie in their antiMormonism as per my many years long experience.


Then kindly respond to the evidence. If I'm lying (I'm not), I'm sure you can show me where.

And it's not "anti-Mormon" to disapprove of concealing sexual relationships from one's spouse.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Themis
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Re: Counter-Evidence Regarding Joseph Smith and Plural Marriage

Post by _Themis »

bcspace wrote:
Because I have an open mind and am willing to consider evidence and because I'd rather have evidence of lying before I make a specific accusation. However, you can be assured that all antiMormons lie in their antiMormonism as per my many years long experience.


Why do you give such great examples of how closed minded you are. I love how you only see black and white. A great sign of a closed mind.
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_bcspace
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Re: Counter-Evidence Regarding Joseph Smith and Plural Marriage

Post by _bcspace »

Because I have an open mind and am willing to consider evidence and because I'd rather have evidence of lying before I make a specific accusation. However, you can be assured that all antiMormons lie in their antiMormonism as per my many years long experience.

Why do you give such great examples of how closed minded you are. I love how you only see black and white. A great sign of a closed mind.


How is knowing that everything is black and white an example of being closed minded? How does that preclude one from considering evidence and changing their minds if needs be?
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_bcspace
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Re: Counter-Evidence Regarding Joseph Smith and Plural Marriage

Post by _bcspace »

BC---You always come back to the same "check the children" comment. Do you really believe that simply because Joseph didn't have any biological children that are known that he did not consummate any of his marriages?


No. But it makes it highly unlikely that he did plural marriages/sealings for prurient purpose as well as unlikely he did have sex with any number of them.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_madeleine
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Re: Counter-Evidence Regarding Joseph Smith and Plural Marriage

Post by _madeleine »

bcspace wrote:
BC---You always come back to the same "check the children" comment. Do you really believe that simply because Joseph didn't have any biological children that are known that he did not consummate any of his marriages?


No. But it makes it highly unlikely that he did plural marriages/sealings for prurient purpose as well as unlikely he did have sex with any number of them.


What do you believe the purpose was in performing a marriage sealing rite but never consummating the marriage? And why don't Mormons do this today?
Being a Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction -Pope Benedict XVI
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