Counter-Evidence Regarding Joseph Smith and Plural Marriage

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_Jaybear
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Re: Counter-Evidence Regarding Joseph Smith and Plural Marriage

Post by _Jaybear »

bcspace wrote:No. But it makes it highly unlikely that he did plural marriages/sealings for prurient purpose as well as unlikely he did have sex with any number of them.


I don't follow your reasoning.

Smith married 30+ women, with no identifiable children from those unions.

One could therefore conclude that either the marriages were purely ceremonial, or that Smith took efforts to avoid pregnancies.

But we know they were not purely ceremonial, from (1)testimony of some of these women; (2) Emma's disdain for the practice; (3) Smith's great efforts to conceal the practice from the public.

So then we should reasonable conclude that Smith had sex with these women for recreational and not procreational reasons.

So then how does the fact that Smith engaged in recreational sex with all these other women lead you to conclude that his interests were not prurient.
_Themis
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Re: Counter-Evidence Regarding Joseph Smith and Plural Marriage

Post by _Themis »

bcspace wrote:


How is knowing that everything is black and white an example of being closed minded? How does that preclude one from considering evidence and changing their minds if needs be?[/quote]

You betrayed yourself with your second sentence using the word ALL. This shows black and white or absolute thinking, which is one of the things closed minded people tend to do. This is not the first time you have done this as well. Another example is no democrat can be a good Mormon. More absolute thinking which is obviously incorrect to almost everyone.

No. But it makes it highly unlikely that he did plural marriages/sealings for prurient purpose as well as unlikely he did have sex with any number of them.


Not at all. You again ignore the evidence that does not support what you want to believe. You ignore that Joseph would not have had that much time with these wives, and most were married not many years before he was murdered. You ignore the most important evidence which says some of his wives were getting abortions. Now this evidence may not be as good as we would like, but it certainly answers the question "Have you checked the children". It does not prove it conclusively, but does provide a plausible explanation why Joseph may not have had many or any children with his other wives. Remember not all have been tested.
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_Themis
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Re: Counter-Evidence Regarding Joseph Smith and Plural Marriage

Post by _Themis »

Runtu wrote:
I appreciate that, Nevo. As I said, I respect those, like you, who acknowledge what happened and honestly disagree about the implications of these issues. Really, all you're saying is that you disagree with me about what this says about Joseph Smith's character. I respect that.

What I don't respect is the attitude of those who, in their zeal to defend the prophet, deny the facts and accuse those who are troubled by this of being evil, lying slanderers.


Very well said. It is why Nevo has so much credibility and Bcspace does not.
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_Buffalo
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Re: Counter-Evidence Regarding Joseph Smith and Plural Marriage

Post by _Buffalo »

Most of Joseph's early marriages were to married women. Later on he mostly focused on single women. Maybe the switch came after he found an effective method of birth control. By having sex with married women, there was a natural cover for any inconvenient pregnancies. Maybe later he started using condoms or pulled out or engaged in anal sex, abortions etc.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Themis
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Re: Counter-Evidence Regarding Joseph Smith and Plural Marriage

Post by _Themis »

Buffalo wrote:Most of Joseph's early marriages were to married women. Later on he mostly focused on single women. Maybe the switch came after he found an effective method of birth control. By having sex with married women, there was a natural cover for any inconvenient pregnancies. Maybe later he started using condoms or pulled out or engaged in anal sex, abortions etc.


Sarah Pratt did make allegations that abortions were going on with the wives that were officially considered single.
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_stemelbow
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Re: Counter-Evidence Regarding Joseph Smith and Plural Marriage

Post by _stemelbow »

harmony wrote:I disagree, because by introducing polygamy, he led the Saints astray. By institutionalizing lying from the pulpit, he led the Saints astray.


What saints are astray? I grant that there are some, but there will always be some.

If Joseph Smith was a prophet...if he had his First Vision, translated the Book of Mormon, received further revelation, received the keys to the priesthood, and then afterward mistakenly practiced polygamy, then is it safe to assume that the restoration was halted? That he was a fallen prophet and could not be trusted from the moment (which moment that is) polygamy was begun? Or could it be possible that a prophet made a big blunder, and God knowing this man's weakness or mistakes and moved on establishing what was necessary?
Love ya tons,
Stem


I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
_harmony
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Re: Counter-Evidence Regarding Joseph Smith and Plural Marriage

Post by _harmony »

stemelbow wrote:
harmony wrote:I disagree, because by introducing polygamy, he led the Saints astray. By institutionalizing lying from the pulpit, he led the Saints astray.


What saints are astray? I grant that there are some, but there will always be some.


All of them. Think about it, stem:

1. Gospel is restored. Book of Mormon written. God promises to destroy any prophet who leads church astray.

2. Joseph introduces polygamy and hides it; claims it's from God, but God knows it isn't.

3. Saints question the rumors. Joseph lies about it from the pulpit and in the newspaper.

4. God removes Joseph's protection and Joseph dies young.

The church has been astray ever since, with occasional pushes to move it back on track.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_jon
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Re: Counter-Evidence Regarding Joseph Smith and Plural Marriage

Post by _jon »

stemelbow wrote:
What saints are astray? I grant that there are some, but there will always be some.

If Joseph Smith was a prophet...if he had his First Vision, translated the Book of Mormon, received further revelation, received the keys to the priesthood, and then afterward mistakenly practiced polygamy, then is it safe to assume that the restoration was halted? That he was a fallen prophet and could not be trusted from the moment (which moment that is) polygamy was begun? Or could it be possible that a prophet made a big blunder, and God knowing this man's weakness or mistakes and moved on establishing what was necessary?


Seems like it may be difficult to distinguish between revelation and blunder...
'Church pictures are not always accurate' (The Nehor May 4th 2011)

Morality is doing what is right, regardless of what you are told.
Religion is doing what you are told, regardless of what is right.
_stemelbow
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Re: Counter-Evidence Regarding Joseph Smith and Plural Marriage

Post by _stemelbow »

Runtu wrote:I've never said he was a "sex-crazed fella." There's this weird false dichotomy that some like to put forward: either he was a lustful horndog, or he was a chaste and true prophet. He was a human being with human desires, aspirations, and failings; in other words, he was just like the rest of us.


I don't think he pretended to be anything other than a real human with real human feelings, thoughts, weaknesses and such though. Surely he thought of himself as a prophet but that could very well speak to his desire to focus on the task at hand moreso than suggesting he thought he was something more than he was--something beyond human.

I have no idea how or when he "came upon the question" of polygamy. His practice of plural marriage doesn't invalidate his calling as a prophet, if indeed he was one. Neither does lying to Emma to conceal his marriages. I find the latter troubling, which apparently means I'm the worst kind of anti-Mormon.


And, as I said, it quite reasonable to find Joseph Smith' behavior troubling particularly in the realm of polygamy. Putting myself in his shoes, having to live his life, feel the pressure of his life, and practice polygamy as directly and personally commanded of God--my goodness, I don't know how I'd handle it, or how I'd behave. With this, I feel like I can kinda get where's he coming from. That's not to say he's completely innocent, or I think its unreasonable to conclude Joseph Smith was a fraud. I'm fine with the line of reasoning that Joseph Smith could have been a fraud as evidenced by his behavior towards women. It makes sense. Indeed, he suggested that he wouldn't believe himself either if he hadn't seen it, lived it. Its completely reasonable to conclude Mormonism is false. I just can't buy such a conclusion because of what I've seen and lived.
Love ya tons,
Stem


I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
_MsJack
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Re: Counter-Evidence Regarding Joseph Smith and Plural Marriage

Post by _MsJack »

Nevo wrote:I don't dispute the fact that Joseph Smith concealed from Emma the full extent of his practice of polygamy. But I question whether this necessarily speaks poorly of his character.

I believe that Joseph believed that he was divinely commanded to practice polygamy. But I think he also saw clearly that following this divine imperative would create enormous hurt and resentment on the part of Emma. Joseph--hoping against hope, no doubt--sought Emma's blessing at one point, but it was short-lived. Emma had shared her husband with others, indeed the whole church, for almost their entire marriage. It was too much for her to share him with other wives too--including trusted friends. Surely Joseph wished to avoid domestic strife (he abhorred contention), but I think he also wished to spare Emma's feelings (as much as possible). After all, he loved her.

So he left her out of it. To my way of thinking, to do otherwise, to have involved Emma in every detail of his polygamous relations--or worse, to have taken wives openly and exposed Emma to public shame--would have been heartless and cruel. As it was, their marriage was severely strained by the ordeal.

So, although regrettable, I don't know that Joseph's actions here were necessarily wrong. They may have been (D&C 132:56 refers to unspecified "trespasses" against Emma), but I can't say with certainty that they were.

Nevo, I'm genuinely glad that you've decided to drop by and weigh in. You've laid out a very charitable interpretation of the events under discussion without denying the evidence for them or calling into question the motives and character of those who are troubled by them, and for that I'm grateful.

It's certainly possible that Joseph's primary motivation in concealing his marriages from Emma was to spare her feelings, and it's possible that he really believed polygamy was commanded by God. I don't claim to know the mind of Joseph Smith (and don't believe anyone really can, for that matter) and I've known my share of good men who concealed troubling information from their wives out of a sincere desire to not distress them, so I'm sympathetic to the possibility.

However, I have to disagree with you that involving Emma would have been crueler than not involving her. In all of the cases I've known where a husband concealed something from his wife, if his wife found out in spite of his efforts, the situation became far, far worse than it would have been had he simply been honest with the difficult news from the beginning. Sure, the wife had some peace for however long he kept the truth from her, but when she finally found out, she had to deal with the horrible news on top of the lack of trust in her husband. Some hear the truth from other sources instead of hearing it from their husbands directly, which is usually even worse.

You say that he probably wanted to spare her feelings, and he may have achieved that to some extent in the short run. But how spared do you think her feelings were when, years later, women began coming out of the woodwork and claiming marriages to her fallen husband that she had known nothing about?

In any case, my only position on this is that it was wrong for Joseph to conceal marriages from Emma and then lie to her about them. I don't think a sincere belief in polygamy as a divine commandment or a well-meaning desire to preserve Emma's feelings would have made any of it right. It was still wrong.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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