The weakness within me.

[_stemelbow]

There is an elitist attitude in Mormonism - an "I have someone others don't" - that revolves around being a chosen spirit of heavenly parents and possessing the fullness of the gospel. As much as members may admire those outside the faith, there is very often a sense that such outsiders or gentiles are lacking something of central value. I've see this sense of chosenness used as a crutch or means of mitigating real world failures or shortcomings. That's not to say that Mormons aren't taught good virtues and behaviors, just that some of their actions are motivated by a condescending sense of helping those less blessed.

Stem - I would suggest that the abandonment of such a sense of specialness is a significant obstacle for many who would otherwise leave the church. The loss of a chosen identity, special access to the divine, etc. Yet, in giving it up, in realizing one's ordinariness among humankind, is an extremely freeing and fulfilling experience.

I agree that there are some entitled LDS that in my eyes just don't get it. I agree that many act superior to others. And I agree that if I'm to benefit while being LDS that is on of the main things I need to avoid doing. I feel very ordinary among humankind.

On the flip the exact opposite also occurs which saddens me. Some how leave the church, or some who are opposed to the church treat LDS much like you describe some LDS treating others.

[_stemelbow]

If it's not true Stem, then it doesn't mean dick... seriously. Rationalize it six ways till Tuesday, but it's not true and at some level you know this.

You offer such wonderful messages. Well, let's just say you have the potential to offer such wonderful messages.

[_stemelbow]

My take is, i really feel it appropriate to find a group that is all about something bigger than itself--something that hopes to develop unity, love, appreciation and ways to help something other than itself.

Why is it "appropriate" to find a group for all that? Why not just do all the above on your own?

With a group, united, it becomes all that more effective. By myself, I am nothing.

[_stemelbow]

Hey cuz,

Do u plan to overcome your stated weakness? Would u like to?

of course.

[_stemelbow]

In that case, one must think. It is a hard task for many of us (them?).

Well, that's silly. One must think anyway.

[_LDSToronto]

Ultimately I just want to be a better person. Well by "just" I don't' mean to say that's my only focus and goal but its definitely a high priority--not to belabor that point.

Stem, I've grown from absolutely loathing you to seeing you as a decent person, in a matter of months. That said, let me ask you a couple of questions:

1. Do you feel any change? If so, was that change brought about by your membership in the LDS Church?

2. What does it mean to be a better person? Can you elaborate a bit on that - there's probably no right answer, but there are probably a lot of different answers.

H.

[_jon]

Ultimately I just want to be a better person. Well by "just" I don't' mean to say that's my only focus and goal but its definitely a high priority--not to belabor that point.

If Mormonism the religion will be helpful to my stated objective I'm happy. In sum, looking back I don't know where I'd be without my religious faith (by that I mean I sincerely don't know, not the crying in testimony meeting meaningof I don't know). In some ways its helped shape me, but granted some of that shaping I could have gotten elsewhere or without the religion. So I suppose that means I"m at elast somewhat open to exploring other "life-styles" if that's what you want to call it. I'm not trying to state I'm going to actively leave the Church or decry publically the things about it that I find troubling or disagree with. Oh no. That's not what I'm doing. I'm just stating that I truly think there is good out there. Good and truths being found, practiced, and taught outside the realm of my religion. I mean for one, my religion is steeped heavily in western culture. I hope one day there's more of an embrace of outside influences within this western, oh I forgot, conservative culture. I recognize there's weakness sitting in my vantage point (as a faithful LDS) and trying to find truth whereever it may be. (another decent example in found in Just me's recent thread about the age of the earth).

Anyway, and I've said this before, the Church to me is nothing if not a sanctuary to help its people learn the concept of love. LDS call charity greater than love, but its all the same. loving the Savior. Loving others. Building unity. Building camraderie. I realize in the Church's efforts there may be, or may just appear to be, things done or said that seem to contradict the purpose I find in the Church. I don't think the Church is inerrant--that's my justification. One of these days, i truly hope the Church proves to me, beyond any shadow of my doubts, that it is the best org around that I can align myself with to help me accomplish a better person. I guess my faith and that hope I just described keeps me believing, keeps me going, keeps me "defending" (if anyone can call what I do that).

So here we are. What say you, if you care to say anything at all?

Stem got all of the above for a mere 10% of his gross...
...well, plus fast offering
...oh, and missionary fund
...oops, nearly forgot the buidling fund
...and...
well...
and the cleaning duty...

[_stemelbow]

Stem, I've grown from absolutely loathing you to seeing you as a decent person, in a matter of months.

Well that's interesting to hear. Being loathed is no fun. I'm glad I've been taken of your to loath list.

That said, let me ask you a couple of questions:

1. Do you feel any change? If so, was that change brought about by your membership in the LDS Church?

I seek positive change daily, hourly. Well mostly daily. In the OP I have stated matter of factly that I feel like I've benefitted from the Church, but I must be clear some of those benefits, if not all, could have been gained from other avenues outside the Church. I don't really know how much the church has benefitted me because of that, if benefitted at all. If I lived a parallel life outside the Church maybe I can begin to answer that a little.

2. What does it mean to be a better person? Can you elaborate a bit on that - there's probably no right answer, but there are probably a lot of different answers.

H.

I would happily elaborate a bit with the qualtification that you realize my elaboration is not meant to be exhaustive. I really think it wouldtake books to answer that question. One might say "to be a better person I must be good at my job" which can have truth to it, but in many cases may not. What I seek to acheive is a genuine desire to help other people, be there for them and understand who they are. I seek to learn to love and appreciate people and where they are coming from. There is far more to it, but that is the gist of it.

[_stemelbow]

Stem got all of the above for a mere 10% of his gross...
...well, plus fast offering
...oh, and missionary fund
...oops, nearly forgot the buidling fund
...and...
well...
and the cleaning duty...

Well I can sure tell you didn't read what I wrote. that's cool. I don't expect many if any to be interested in what I have to say. Peace to you, Jon (who I suspect is my bro-in-law).

[_jon]

Stem got all of the above for a mere 10% of his gross...
...well, plus fast offering
...oh, and missionary fund
...oops, nearly forgot the buidling fund
...and...
well...
and the cleaning duty...

Well I can sure tell you didn't read what I wrote. that's cool. I don't expect many if any to be interested in what I have to say. Peace to you, Jon (who I suspect is my bro-in-law).

Sorry stem, I can see how people benefit from Church programmes etc, but I can see people gaining this kind of comfort from all different walks of life and organisations without the cost (financial and personal) and without the guilt trips.
For instance, you wrote "by myself I am nothing".
That is not true.
You may find additional self worth from your interactions and associations, but that is true of any interactions, not just religious experiences.

The Church makes me cross and that affects my tone, sorry.