An Insiders View Of Mormon Origins...

[_DarkHelmet]

But if you believe Joseph smith was a prophet it all makes sense.

See? A little caricature, a lot of historical ignorance, et voilà!

It's so easy!

It's generally true though.

[_Daniel Peterson]

So Joe didn't marry his neighbor's wives? Which "historical evidence" would make this subject more difficult to discuss? Again, you are typing gibberish....

See Brian Hales's essay in this volume.

Of course, to you it's all going to be gibberish. So you should probably save your money.

[_schreech]

See Brian Hales's essay in this volume.

Of course, to you it's all going to be gibberish. So you should probably save your money.

So he didn't marry his neighbors wives? sheesh, talk about silly, i ask a simple yes/no question and you tell me to buy a book...If you are intimidated by the question, just say "i don't know"...simple as that...

[_Yong Xi]

LOL. Dark Helmet's little witticisms reflect such a marvelously inaccurate notion of Joseph Smith's plural marriages that they really must be celebrated.

One of the most striking things about a number of Joseph's plural marriages is precisely how dispassionate they were. No sign of lust whatever.

The marriage is performed in Joseph's office. He thanks the officiator, shakes hands with the bride, and, when they've left, returns to his desk.

A difficult thing to account for, given most anti-Mormon paradigms. So better left unmentioned.

The marriage ceremony may have been dispassionate. What does that have to do with lust?

Any 30 something man married to 33 women will lust after, at least, some of them. I would. So would you. Why wouldn't Joseph?

Did Joseph lust after his wives before he was commanded to marry them, upon receiving the commandment but before marriage, or after he married them? At what point in time did Joseph lust?

[_DarkHelmet]

LOL. Dark Helmet's little witticisms reflect such a marvelously inaccurate notion of Joseph Smith's plural marriages that they really must be celebrated.

One of the most striking things about a number of Joseph's plural marriages is precisely how dispassionate they were. No sign of lust whatever.

The marriage is performed in Joseph's office. He thanks the officiator, shakes hands with the bride, and, when they've left, returns to his desk.

A difficult thing to account for, given most anti-Mormon paradigms. So better left unmentioned.

The marriage ceremony may have been dispassionate. What does that have to do with lust?

Any 30 something man married to 33 women will lust after, at least, some of them. I would. So would you. Why wouldn't Joseph?

Did Joseph lust after his wives before he was commanded to marry them, upon receiving the commandment but before marriage, or after he married them? At what point in time did Joseph lust?

Most Mormons don't have a problem with a husband and wife lusting after one another sexually. It's a healthy part of married life. And I think most Mormons believe Joseph and Emma had a normal, healthy, and sexually active marriage. Joseph probably even lusted after Emma on a regular basis before taking her to his bed chambers. The funny thing is Mormons get their panties in a wad when you suggest Joseph had the same feelings for his other wives. Why shouldn't he? The problem is polygamy is a no-win situation for Joseph Smith polygamy apologists. If he did have normal sexual feelings for his other wives, it makes him look like a guy who used his position of power to take advantage of sexual opportunities. If he didn't have sexual feelings for his other wives, then he is an uncaring husband who has denied these women a chance to be married to someone who will desire them, and give them the physical and emotional intimacy they need, and the opportunity to be a mother. Either way, Joseph Smith comes off looking bad.

[_just me]

Most Mormons don't have a problem with a husband and wife lusting after one another sexually. It's a healthy part of married life. And I think most Mormons believe Joseph and Emma had a normal, healthy, and sexually active marriage. Joseph probably even lusted after Emma on a regular basis before taking her to his bed chambers. The funny thing is Mormons get their panties in a wad when you suggest Joseph had the same feelings for his other wives. Why shouldn't he? The problem is polygamy is a no-win situation for Joseph Smith polygamy apologists. If he did have normal sexual feelings for his other wives, it makes him look like a guy who used his position of power to take advantage of sexual opportunities. If he didn't have sexual feelings for his other wives, then he is an uncaring husband who has denied these women a chance to be married to someone who will desire them, and give them the physical and emotional intimacy they need, and the opportunity to be a mother. Either way, Joseph Smith comes off looking bad.

Truth!

[_Themis]

LOL. Dark Helmet's little witticisms reflect such a marvelously inaccurate notion of Joseph Smith's plural marriages that they really must be celebrated.

One of the most striking things about a number of Joseph's plural marriages is precisely how dispassionate they were. No sign of lust whatever.

Well if we go by this definition of lust I would agree with you. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lust

This does not mean that sexual desire was not a factor in Joseph's polygamy. I think the evidence strongly supports this. I am not sure why many apologists want to create this false dichotomy that Joseph was a very pure in heart or a total horn dog. The truth I think is somewhere in between. You even admit that you would not defend this behavior if you didn't believe he was called of God to do it. I am confident most if not all apologists would be very critical of other who have done what Joseph did. Warren Jeff's is just following Joseph's and BY examples with polygamy. Although I am not aware that he is marrying other men's wives. :)

The marriage is performed in Joseph's office. He thanks the officiator, shakes hands with the bride, and, when they've left, returns to his desk.

Can you show sources on how many were performed in his Office and he went back to work right after. I am sure Joseph did not have sex with every wife, but he did with many, and I am sure there are others we don't know about. I think Joseph probably did believe in himself and justified Polygamy in his mind on religious grounds, even though it may have started due to sexual desires and needing a way to conceal this under the guise of religion. I suspect he got caught with his pants down with Fanny. I wouldn't doubt that this may have been the beginning of where polygamy began. I doubt he married Fanny although I suspect he used God to get her to have sex. This is very common way for religious leaders to get sexual access to followers.

[_Daniel Peterson]

I am not sure why many apologists want to create this false dichotomy that Joseph was a very pure in heart or a total horn dog.

You won't find such a dichotomy in anything I wrote in this thread, nor in anything I've ever written.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/eisegesis

The truth I think is somewhere in between

And I denied that obvious truth . . . where, exactly?

Can you show sources on how many were performed in his Office and he went back to work right after.

Not off hand. And perhaps not ever.

I was responding directly to Dark Helmet's attempted witticism. That is the context of my response. My response must be understood in that context. It probably can't -- and, on this board, certainly won't -- be understood outside of that context.

I am sure Joseph did not have sex with every wife, but he did with many, and I am sure there are others we don't know about.

A topic on which I've said precisely nothing here.

I doubt he married Fanny

Have you read Don Bradley's excellent article on that topic? He comes to a different conclusion than you do.

[_Themis]

You won't find such a dichotomy in anything I wrote in this thread, nor in anything I've ever written.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/eisegesis

I think you at least come off that way since you like many who are trying to defend Joseph, tend not to really criticize him either. At least in any meaningful or relevant ways. I think many don't want to be seen being to critical of Joseph.

And I denied that obvious truth . . . where, exactly?

Did I say you denied it? I must have missed it. Not everything I wrote is directed at you. Much of that post I am just giving my take on it.

Not off hand. And perhaps not ever.

I was responding directly to Dark Helmet's attempted witticism. That is the context of my response. My response must be understood in that context. It probably can't -- and, on this board, certainly won't -- be understood outside of that context.

I can understand that, but it still comes off as trying to present Joseph as not having any real interests in polygamy other then it is something he has to do per God's commands.

A topic on which I've said precisely nothing here.

Sorry. Again was not directed at you.

Have you read Don Bradley's excellent article on that topic? He comes to a different conclusion than you do.

I am sure he does. Do you have a link? I did say though that I could see Joseph using God to convince Fanny that any relationship that included sex was what God wanted, and would certainly be open to Joseph telling her that it would be a marriage in God's eyes. Like I said, this is a common tool of many religious leaders to get sexual access to followers.

[_why me]

It's difficult to imagine marrying your neighbors wife without first coveting.

Unless of course one is placed between a rock and a hard place about polygamy and then decide to ask women who one knows and who one desires to have kinship with her family. Has I have said, a horny toad just doesn't become suddenly a horny toad. I see no horny toadism when Joseph traveled away from the saints to points east. And I see no horny toadism from the women who did become his plural wife. I read of no bedroom lust with the prophet drooling from his mouth as orgasm happens. I would imagine that the women who stayed behind when the saints moved west, would be more than willing to spill the beans if carnal desire were the case. Unless of course, women of yesteryear had pride in themselves and did not seek fame for 15 minutes as they do now.