The Liberal Lie on Prop 8

[_Milesius]

Plato was not a homosexual and I sincerely doubt Caesar was either.

Not that it matters one bit to me, but you are wrong. In Plato's text, symposium, Plato argued that love between males is the highest form and that sex with women is only for means of reproduction. Only with men, can the Greek male reach their full intellectual potential.

Uh-huh. What makes you think Symposium represents Plato's thought? Ever heard of Laws?

Plato never married and had many gay lovers. Sounds gay to me.

Please provide evidence for this naked assertion.

Caesar was at the very least, very bi-sexual. His recorded boy/men lovers/affairs are too numerous to recount here. Again, sounds pretty gay to me.

Then you shouldn't have any trouble coughing up evidence for this assertion.

[_Everybody Wang Chung]

Uh-huh. What makes you think Symposium represents Plato's thought? Ever heard of Laws? Plato never married and had many gay lovers.

Please provide evidence for this naked assertion.

Because Plato wrote Symposium, it represents his thoughts in several areas. Also, a large number of Plato's works reference or discuss the nature of homosexual relationships and homosexual love. It is also undisputed that Plato never married.

Mileus, you will have to search far and wide to find a historian who does not feel that Plato was gay. This is almost undisputed. Are you really going to take the position that Plato was not gay? CFR please.

]

Then you shouldn't have any trouble coughing up evidence for this assertion (that Caesar was gay).

Suetonius: Gaius Julius Caesar; (discusses when Julius Caesar was ambassador to Nicomedes IV of Bithynia, and his lengthy homosexual relationship he had with the king).

Caesar's gay lovers/affairs were so well known that Senator Marcus Tullius Cicero's famous saying was well known throughout the empire, "Cesar, the man of every women, and the woman of every man in Rome".

Mileus, are you really going to take the position that Caesar was not at the very least very bi-sexual? CFR please.

Mileus, there is nothing to fear from these very important figures in human history being gay. I could literally bring up thousands of gay historical figures who had huge impacts on human history. There is nothing to fear from this, Mileus.

[_Brackite]

The problem is, Buffalo, we won't know whether or not those things which would be considered to be immoral by those that are less progressive/liberal than yourself are going to result in effects that are harmless as the next generation comes along and the generation after that. I have seen a number of cultural changes gradually evolve during my lifetime (greater acceptance of pornography, pre-marital sex and living together, masturbation, and sodomy) that have led to a general movement towards families that are more non-traditional and less stable than in the past.

Whether this is harmless or harmful...time will tell.

But if the last few decades can be used as a reference point, I think that society is gradually moving towards a permissiveness and acceptance of alternative forms of morality (if you can call it such) which will, and have already, alter the very fabric of our nation. Those such as yourself, the progressives, will of course say that this is for the good and that there will be no harm done.

I'm not so sure.

Regards,
MG

Are you seriously equating Masturbation as being as "evil" and "sinful" as pornography, pre-marital sex, and sodomy??? There are a lot of People who are against Gay Marriage who do Not believe that the Practice of Masturbation is "evil" and "sinful." The OP of this Discussion Thread, who is against Same Sex Marriage does Not believe that that the Practice of Masturbation is "evil" and "sinful." He has stated here before that he disagrees with the LDS Church's teaching about Masturbation. The LDS Church is totally wrong about its teaching on the Practice of Masturbation. Hopefully, it will change soon.

[_Milesius]

Uh-huh. What makes you think Symposium represents Plato's thought? Ever heard of Laws? Plato never married and had many gay lovers.

Please provide evidence for this naked assertion.

Because Plato wrote Symposium, it represents his thoughts in several areas.

The classicist I cited says otherwise.

Also see this.

Also, a large number of Plato's works reference or discuss the nature of homosexual relationships and homosexual love.

I know of two. I also know he condemns homosexuality in Laws, which was his last dialogue.

It is also undisputed that Plato never married.

So?

Mileus, you will have to search far and wide to find a historian who does not feel that Plato was gay. This is almost undisputed. Are you really going to take the position that Plato was not gay? CFR please.

You clearly do not know how argumentation and debate works. I cited a classicist in my last post. Now I have given you another citation. By way of contrast, you have yet to provide one.

Suetonius: Gaius Julius Caesar; (discusses when Julius Caesar was ambassador to Nicomedes IV of Bithynia, and his lengthy homosexual relationship he had with the king).

Caesar's gay lovers/affairs were so well known that Senator Marcus Tullius Cicero's famous saying was well known throughout the empire, "Cesar, the man of every women, and the woman of every man in Rome".

Suetonius quotes Curio (the elder), not Cicero, saying that. So you have one source, not two.

Mileus, are you really going to take the position that Caesar was not at the very least very bi-sexual? CFR please.

As I wrote above, you don't know how argumentation and debate works.

[_Everybody Wang Chung]

Milieus,

Not to deviate from the OP too much, but once again you are wrong about Plato and Julius. The editorial you cite doesn't argue that Plato was heterosexual. Indeed, in the Laws, Plato did not reject homosexual eros, but its expression in intercourse outside of marriage, just as he rejected the expression of heterosexual passion outside marriage. Seriously Milieus, I can't believe we are even having this discussion. Plato was gay. End of discussion. Get over it. If you are truly interested in a detailed analysis of Plato's Laws, I would recommend reading K.J. Dover and David Greenberg.

As far as Julius Caesar, I have given you CFRs that, at the very least, show he was bi-sexual and engaged in homosexual relationships. So far you have given me no evidence that he was a heterosexual. End of discussion so far.

Milieus, I can see that you are passionate about not teaching in public schools that many famous and influential people were gay. I can understand and respect that. My original point was that I didn't see any harm in teaching, that many influential people in American and world history were gay and that these people contributed much to our society. I would have no problem if schools wanted to point out to their students that the following people were gay (especially if doing so would help prevent discrimination, bullying and violence):

Walt Whitman (arguably America's best poet);

Tennessee Williams (aguably America's best playright);

Ralph Waldo Emerson (arguably America's most influential author);

Cole Porter (arguably America's best composer);

Andy Warhol (arguably Ameria's most influential artist);

Eleanor Roosevelt (arguably America's most influential first lady); or even

Oscar Wilde, Lord Bryon, Hermon Melville, Alexander the Great, etc. etc. etc. etc.

Milieus, America has a long and storied tradition of discrimination and violence against gay people. This might be a step in the right direction to remedy some of that. In any event, there is nothing to fear from having people learn that gay people have contributed in many ways and in many different areas in society throughout history.