Fox Advocacy Group Declares Romney Non-Christian

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_Aristotle Smith
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Re: Fox Advocacy Group Declares Romney Non-Christian

Post by _Aristotle Smith »

MsJack wrote:
Daniel Peterson wrote:Do the FLDS accept the nickname [Mormon]? I don't know.

Yes. They very much do.


My favorite paragraph from ye olde article:
The LDS Church has asked that media refer to those who follow the original beliefs set down by Joseph Smith as "polygamous sects," the group said, but "most of us are not (and do not refer to ourselves as) polygamists."


Maybe orthodox Christians can start calling Mormons "apostate Campbellites." What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Fox Advocacy Group Declares Romney Non-Christian

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Ms. Jack, I temporarily suspend my policy of not interacting with you to respond to this post, because I think it raises a couple of valid issues to which I should respond.

MsJack wrote:
Daniel Peterson wrote:Do the FLDS accept the nickname [Mormon]? I don't know.

Yes. They very much do.

That's interesting. They're free, of course, to call themselves "Mormons" if they choose. I don't care. Whether I'll use the term to refer to them, though, is another matter. (See below.)

MsJack wrote:That people might mistake them for members of the Salt-Lake based church if we allow them the term "Mormon" strikes me as a poor reason to deny it to them.

I haven't advocated denying it to them.

But I do think that clarity is, on the whole, better than confusion.

MsJack wrote:People might mistakenly think Mormons believe in the Trinity if we allow them the term "Christian," but that's also a poor reason to deny it to them.

I don't see the two situations as precisely comparable. Membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a very specific and quite easily definable thing, so that confusion as to membership in the Church obfuscates what is, in principle and typically in fact, a very clear matter. One either is a member or one isn't, and the question isn't really open for debate.

"Christianity," by contrast, lacks the clear, institutionally-defined boundaries that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has, and, thus, fudging its boundaries isn't the obvious sin against unambiguous clarity that wittingly or unwittingly fudging the boundaries of the Church would be. Moreover, Christianity has always included non-Trinitarians within its fold -- at least, according to normal English usage (and the usage of every other language, both ancient and modern, that I've checked).

MsJack wrote:Which is pretty much why Chap said there isn't an argument one can make to support Latter-day Saints using the term "Christian" which doesn't work just as well in granting the FLDS the term "Mormon."

I'm still not altogether convinced. They're perfectly free to use it for themselves, obviously, and others are free to use it for them, too, if those others so prefer.

But I believe that doing so obscures an important distinction.

If, by "Mormon," people overwhelmingly intend to say "specifically of or pertaining to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" -- which I suspect to be true -- then terming members of another church "Mormons" is intentionally or unintentionally misleading or confusing. (Again, by contrast, I have already demonstrated, at length, that, when using the term Christian, ancient writers and modern scholars have routinely included non-Trinitarians -- and other kinds of alleged "heretics" -- under that title.)
_MsJack
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Re: Fox Advocacy Group Declares Romney Non-Christian

Post by _MsJack »

Daniel Peterson wrote:Ms. Jack, I temporarily suspend my policy of not interacting with you to respond to this post, because I think it raises a couple of valid issues to which I should respond.

Dan, I'm really not interested in hearing any more about your "policy" of not interacting with me, and since I've heard it before, I'm not sure why you even bother bringing it up. If you want to respond to me, respond to me. If you don't, then don't.

I agree that clarity is better than confusion, but what constitutes "clarity" and what constitutes "confusion" is sometimes in the eye of the beholder. To the many Christians who don't think of Mormonism as a "Christian" group, calling them one is very confusing indeed.

Daniel Peterson wrote:Membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a very specific and quite easily definable thing, so that confusion as to membership in the Church obfuscates what is, in principle and typically in fact, a very

Membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a specific and easily definable thing, but I'm not sure that pointing that out really does much to add clarity to the "fundamentalist Mormon" debate. There are many members of polygamous groups who are still technically on the rolls of the LDS church. Even if we decided that limiting the term "Mormon" to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a good idea, we would still have a body of "fundamentalist Mormons" practicing polygamy to deal with.

I agree that "Christianity" lacks clear and institutionally-defined boundaries, but I'm not comparing "Christianity" to "membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." I'm comparing it to "Mormonism," and that term is similarly lacking in clear and institutionally-defined boundaries.

Daniel Peterson wrote:If, by "Mormon," people overwhelmingly intend to say "specifically of or pertaining to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" -- which I suspect to be true

I don't agree. Certainly some of them do, but I think it's just as possible that they intend to say "specifically of or pertaining to the body of people who believe in the Book of Mormon and follow the teachings of Joseph Smith, Jr." If that's the case, the FLDS and other polygamous groups fit the bill. I suppose the CoC would too, but that's precisely why they go out of their way to avoid self-identifying as "Mormons."

For my own part, self-identification is a huge part of whether or not I grant a term to a particular group. Polygamous LDS groups clearly do self-identify as "Mormons," and Mormons do self-identify as "Christians," so in most cases, I'm happy to grant the terms to both groups provided context makes my meanings clear. I suspect brand name control is a huge part of why certain factions within Mormonism and Christianity try to deny the terms to other groups, and this is the best essay I've ever seen on that aspect of the subject: "Are Mormons Christians? Are Post Toasties corn flakes?"

On the other hand, when a group selects terminology for themselves that is misleading or does not adequately describe the point of their message, I may refuse to call them by the term. For example, I often won't refer to the evangelicals from the Council on Biblical Manhood & Womanhood as "complementarians" no matter how much they self-identify by that term because "complementarian" is too vague to adequately describe their message. Many egalitarians believe in gender complementarity and were, in fact, discussing their beliefs on the matter back in the late 70s and early 80s when the forbears to CBMW were still calling themselves "traditionalists." I call them "hierarchists" because I feel that does a better job of describing the part of their message that I disagree with.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13

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_Tchild
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Re: Fox Advocacy Group Declares Romney Non-Christian

Post by _Tchild »

It is all such nonsense. Mormons worship Jesus Christ and hold the atonement as the pinnacle of the gospel and as what constitutes Christianity. Mitt Romney as a Mormon believer is a christian.

While M.R can claim to be a Christian, he is a hypocrite and a liar when he claims he never used the F-word. My business partner worked at icon when Mitt and Bain were running the show. Mitt had quite the temper and used the f-word like a drunken sailor on shore leave.
_Tchild
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Re: Fox Advocacy Group Declares Romney Non-Christian

Post by _Tchild »

It is all such nonsense. Mormons worship Jesus Christ and hold the atonement as the pinnacle of the gospel and as what constitutes Christianity. Mitt Romney as a Mormon believer is a christian.

While M.R can claim to be a Christian, he is a hypocrite and a liar when he claims he never used the F-word. My business partner worked at icon when Mitt and Bain were running the show. Mitt had quite the temper and used the f-word like a drunken sailor on shore leave.
_Runtu
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Re: Fox Advocacy Group Declares Romney Non-Christian

Post by _Runtu »

Hoops wrote:Sounds a lot like what I've been saying.


I thought you said almost precisely the opposite: that it was doctrine that defined who and what is Christian. As I recall, you said that those who do not accept the Trinity, for example, are not Christians. Bishop Hayashi would disagree with that, apparently.
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_zeezrom
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Re: Fox Advocacy Group Declares Romney Non-Christian

Post by _zeezrom »

Reading this reminds me how religion is lame. Religion used to help explain difficult questions like why mountains exist and whether I will catch a deer for dinner. Now what is it? An entrance to a social club? The people quoted in the OP sound silly and childish. What a shameful waste of energy.
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

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_Buffalo
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Re: Fox Advocacy Group Declares Romney Non-Christian

Post by _Buffalo »

Tchild wrote:It is all such nonsense. Mormons worship Jesus Christ and hold the atonement as the pinnacle of the gospel and as what constitutes Christianity. Mitt Romney as a Mormon believer is a christian.

While M.R can claim to be a Christian, he is a hypocrite and a liar when he claims he never used the F-word. My business partner worked at icon when Mitt and Bain were running the show. Mitt had quite the temper and used the f-word like a drunken sailor on shore leave.


Considering the fact that until recently it wasn't clear whether or not Mormons were allowed to worship Jesus, I don't blame evangelicals for thinking Mormons aren't Christian.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_zeezrom
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Re: Fox Advocacy Group Declares Romney Non-Christian

Post by _zeezrom »

Buffalo wrote:Considering the fact that until recently it wasn't clear whether or not Mormons were allowed to worship Jesus, I don't blame evangelicals for thinking Mormons aren't Christian.

Can they? If so, how and when was this made clear?
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

The Holy Sacrament.
_Buffalo
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Re: Fox Advocacy Group Declares Romney Non-Christian

Post by _Buffalo »

zeezrom wrote:
Buffalo wrote:Considering the fact that until recently it wasn't clear whether or not Mormons were allowed to worship Jesus, I don't blame evangelicals for thinking Mormons aren't Christian.

Can they? If so, how and when was this made clear?


Hmm, I don't know. It just seems to have happened.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
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