Happy Pioneer Day

[_Buffalo]

I was responding to harmony, not to you.

It sounds as if she's much more inclined to take the statement as the full gospel truth even than you are. Which, sadly, doesn't surprise me.

my membership in the LDS church makes me as Mormon as you.

Your virtual rejection of Joseph Smith, your dislike of the Doctrine and Covenants, your vitriolic contempt for the leadership of the Church, and etc., and etc., make you, spiritually at least, something rather like a Bickertonite.

Except that I doubt that most Bickertonites hate Utah and BYU as much as you do.

Happy Pioneer Day.

Yes, Harmony. You're only allowed to dismiss the teachings of the prophets if it's in an apologetic, faith-promoting way.

[_Daniel Peterson]

Yes, Harmony. You're only allowed to dismiss the teachings of the prophets if it's in an apologetic, faith-promoting way.

You've got a powerful ally in this young one, harmony. The Farce is strong in him.

[_Runtu]

Happy Pioneer Day, everyone!

I went to church in my pioneer skirt today hoping to get my pioneer on but sadly there was nary a mention of it or pioneers all day. :( So sad.

Anyway, I got an ancestor who was in the Brigham Young Company and all that jazz. So, YAY!

I had to drive to Park City yesterday on an important errand, so I missed church. Dang!

My ancestors came to Utah in 1849 in the Ezra T. Benson company. They probably would have come sooner, but Ezra Williams was sent to provide medical care to European immigrants arriving in St. Louis.

I have to work today (but then I got Good Friday off), but today is my 24th anniversary, which to me is a much bigger deal than Pioneer Day.

[_Buffalo]

Yes, Harmony. You're only allowed to dismiss the teachings of the prophets if it's in an apologetic, faith-promoting way.

You've got a powerful ally in this young one, harmony. The Farce is strong in him.

[_madeleine]

I had to drive to Park City yesterday on an important errand, so I missed church. Dang!

My ancestors came to Utah in 1849 in the Ezra T. Benson company. They probably would have come sooner, but Ezra Williams was sent to provide medical care to European immigrants arriving in St. Louis.

I have to work today (but then I got Good Friday off), but today is my 24th anniversary, which to me is a much bigger deal than Pioneer Day.

Happy anniversary. :-)

I hear Park City has churches.

[_just me]

I have to work today (but then I got Good Friday off), but today is my 24th anniversary, which to me is a much bigger deal than Pioneer Day.

WAY bigger deal! Congrats and I hope you get to do something enjoyable.

[_Daniel Peterson]

most of the Mormon Battalion apostatized when they discovered that Brigham Young pocketed their paychecks instead of feeding and housing their wives and children who were left behind in Winter Quarters.

I was fascinated by this claim, which I had never encountered before, so I wrote to three friends of mine -- all three Ph.D.s in history, widely published, specialists in the history of Utah, and former presidents of the Mormon History Association; two of whom are retired holders of endowed chairs in western American history. It being summer, I didn't expect immediate replies, but they have now all three gotten back to me. Here are their responses:

Dan,
I suspect that this statement comes from Will Bagley. I would not believe any generalization that Will Bagley makes without seeing the statistical evidence to back it up. He raised a similar criticism of the Hand Cart experiment, but the best evidence I have seen indicates that with the exception of the Willey and Martin companies the mortality rate was not greater than among the wagon trains.

Brother Dan--The Journal of Joseph Levi Fifield has some information relative to the sometimes bad feelings created by Brigham Young having the Battalion members send their money back to Winter Quarters, also the journals of George Parker Dykes, and the diaries of John D. Lee. Lee in fact was one of those sent to be where the battalion was on pay day, to make sure that money was sent back to their families. My own Great Great Grandfather, James Myler, sent money back to his wife and two small children in Winter Quarters, and walked all the way to California, then all the way to Salt Lake City, then all the way to Winter Quarters and got his family then they crossed the plains again and came to Salt Lake City, but he did not complain about sharing his means with his family. I hope those sources prove to be of some help.

Apologies for not getting back to you sooner! I just have not checked my email lately.

So far as I can tell, there are at least a couple of things wrong with that statement. First, Brigham Young did not "pocket" the money. Some of it (I am no longer sure of the amount, but it sticks in my mind that it was around the equivalent of $3000) was given to Captain James Brown, with instructions to "purchase" Miles Goodyear's claim to the Ogden area. He did so -- though, in the end, I think it has been shown that Goodyear did not really have a valid claim to it. I don't know what happened to the rest of the money, but I think anyone would be hard pressed to prove that "most" of the battalion apostatized over the matter! I have never heard anything like that, even though I have heard the some were disgruntled that they did not get all their pay.

[_Doctor Scratch]

I was fascinated by this claim, which I had never encountered before, so I wrote to three friends of mine

Yep. No one outside of DCP is "remotely" familiar with this messageboard or the things that are discussed here.

How revelatory this post is of yours, Dr. Peterson! You emailed three Mopologist Ph.D.s??? Just in response to one freaking post from Dr. Shades?????

I recall that there was a post from someone recently (was it Lamanite?) in which it was suggested that Mopologist ideas are proposed here at MDB as a form of "test." You vehemently denied that this was so, Dr. Peterson, and yet this post of yours demonstrates otherwise. (And how!)

[_Daniel Peterson]

Yep. No one outside of DCP is "remotely" familiar with this messageboard or the things that are discussed here.

I'm sure there's an alternate universe in which that statement makes sense.

How revelatory this post is of yours, Dr. Peterson!

Zzzzz.

You find most everything I do "revelatory." And it's always "revelatory" in ways that show me to be evil, desperate, or whatever your theme du jour is.

You emailed three Mopologist Ph.D.s??? Just in response to one freaking post from Dr. Shades?????

I dropped an e-mail note to three prominent historians of Utah who are friends of mine.

None is associated with the Maxwell Institute. All three are widely respected scholars, honored well beyond the confines of Mormonism. I suspect that nobody has ever called any of them an "apologist" before.

I recall that there was a post from someone recently (was it Lamanite?) in which it was suggested that Mopologist ideas are proposed here at MDB as a form of "test." You vehemently denied that this was so, Dr. Peterson,

According to you, I'm pretty much always in a state of hysteria and near-panic.

Iand yet this post of yours demonstrates otherwise. (And how!)

I don't see how it demonstrates anything of the kind.

I was struck by an accusation against Brigham Young that I hadn't encountered before, so I dropped a note to three prominent historians of Utah who are friends of mine. And I thought that a few here might be interested in their replies.

That's all. But, by all means, fantasize away.

You're a loon.

[Guest]

Scratch/Shades, you can resolve this by simply posting the reference material that supports the statement about their apostasy.