Fox Advocacy Group Declares Romney Non-Christian

[_Daniel Peterson]

On the other side, once again, I think it's not altogether incorrect.

Yeah, truly unsavory characters like MsJack had the audacity to smear Will by, uh, quoting a pervasive pattern of horrible things he's said to people. Just think if they pointed to his habitual lying! In truth, I don't know if the world could handle that much concentrated evil. But I suppose I don't know what the world is coming to when we can sit by while a person is dragged through the mud by odious means such as pointing out things he says. I, for one, am just saddened that he can't get his work published in any venue ever because he was rejected by the Maxwell Institute. Dastardly anti-Mormons.

A simplistic caricature.

I stand refuted.

[_Jason Bourne]

Again, you can't blame evangelicals for doubting the Christianity of a group that has had trouble figuring out whether or not they're allowed to worship Jesus.

I think you are misconstruing things. The issue you are referring too no doubt has to do with McConkies BYU talk that chastised people for wanting to develop a personal relationship with Christ and in fact praying to Jesus instead of the Father. But it is clear from McConkie's hymn "I Believe in Christ" that he, along with other LDS do and did worship Jesus Christ.

[_EAllusion]

It is normative Christian thought to think of Heaven as the best possible state one can end up in. If that doesn't entail families being intact, so much the worse for families being intact. Mormons can't say their heaven is better to that kind of assertion because it is like a child trying to one up another by saying infinity+1.

[_Buffalo]

Again, you can't blame evangelicals for doubting the Christianity of a group that has had trouble figuring out whether or not they're allowed to worship Jesus.

I think you are misconstruing things. The issue you are referring too no doubt has to do with McConkies BYU talk that chastised people for wanting to develop a personal relationship with Christ and in fact praying to Jesus instead of the Father. But it is clear from McConkie's hymn "I Believe in Christ" that he, along with other LDS do and did worship Jesus Christ.

Believing in and worshiping are two different things. People believe in angels, but they don't often worship them.

We do not worship the Son, and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense--the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator.

[_Daniel Peterson]

I don't see any substantial difference, in Latter-day Saint parlance and practice, between our worship of Jesus Christ and our worship of the Father, except in the sense that we believe that we approach the Father through the Son and that we do not venerate the Son apart from the Father.

This is a non-issue for me, and I think that declaring that Latter-day Saints don't, or once didn't, worship the Son is, without nuance and explanation, deeply misleading.

Latter-day Saints have always believed that Jesus Christ is the Lord -- before whom, eventually if not yet now, every knee shall bow.

[_Buffalo]

I don't see any substantial difference, in Latter-day Saint parlance and practice, between our worship of Jesus Christ and our worship of the Father, except in the sense that we believe that we approach the Father through the Son and that we do not venerate the Son apart from the Father.

This is a non-issue for me, and I think that declaring that Latter-day Saints don't, or once didn't, worship the Son is, without nuance and explanation, deeply misleading.

Latter-day Saints have always believed that Jesus Christ is the Lord -- before whom, eventually if not yet now, every knee shall bow.

When you've got an LDS apostle telling students that it's not proper to worship Jesus, it's time to reevaluate your status as a supposedly Christian church. Either you do or you don't. If it's up for grabs, then Mormonism isn't ready to be called Christian yet.

I'm afraid it's you vs. God's apostle, here, Daniel. I know you're just as fond as we are of dismissing the teachings of the apostles, but at least we're not calling ourselves believers.

[_Runtu]

I don't see any substantial difference, in Latter-day Saint parlance and practice, between our worship of Jesus Christ and our worship of the Father, except in the sense that we believe that we approach the Father through the Son and that we do not venerate the Son apart from the Father.

This is a non-issue for me, and I think that declaring that Latter-day Saints don't, or once didn't, worship the Son is, without nuance and explanation, deeply misleading.

Latter-day Saints have always believed that Jesus Christ is the Lord -- before whom, eventually if not yet now, every knee shall bow.

Completely agree, Dan. My wife has more faith in the Savior than just about anyone else I know, and she lives the way you would expect a Christian to live. And yet I've been told by some Evangelicals that she's going to hell because she's LDS and therefore not Christian.

I don't get it.

[_Jason Bourne]

Believing in and worshiping are two different things. People believe in angels, but they don't often worship them.

We do not worship the Son, and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense--the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator.

Well if this is what McConkie said he may have changed his mind:

I Believe in Christ

Fervently

31243, Hymns, I Believe in Christ, no. 134

1. I believe in Christ; he is my King!
With all my heart to him I’ll sing;
I’ll raise my voice in praise and joy,
In grand amens my tongue employ.
I believe in Christ; he is God’s Son.
On earth to dwell his soul did come.
He healed the sick; the dead he raised.
Good works were his; his name be praised.

2. I believe in Christ; oh blessed name!
As Mary’s Son he came to reign
’Mid mortal men, his earthly kin,
To save them from the woes of sin.
I believe in Christ, who marked the path,
Who did gain all his Father hath,
Who said to men: “Come, follow me,
That ye, my friends, with God may be.”

3. I believe in Christ—my Lord, my God!
My feet he plants on gospel sod.
I’ll worship him with all my might;
He is the source of truth and light.
I believe in Christ; he ransoms me.
From Satan’s grasp he sets me free,
And I shall live with joy and love
In his eternal courts above.

4. I believe in Christ; he stands supreme!
From him I’ll gain my fondest dream;
And while I strive through grief and pain,
His voice is heard: “Ye shall obtain.”
I believe in Christ; so come what may,
With him I’ll stand in that great day
When on this earth he comes again
To rule among the sons of men.

Text: Bruce R. McConkie, 1915–1985. © 1972 IRI




I think McConkie's BYU talk was an over reaction to a problem that was somewhat real. I do not think anyone else would have agreed that we do not worship Christ.

[_harmony]

We do not worship the Son, and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense--the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator.

I know the source, but some may not, so please link to this talk.

And it helps to remember some of the other things this gentleman said.

[_Buffalo]

Believing in and worshiping are two different things. People believe in angels, but they don't often worship them.

We do not worship the Son, and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense--the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator.

Well if this is what McConkie said he may have changed his mind:

I Believe in Christ

Fervently

31243, Hymns, I Believe in Christ, no. 134

1. I believe in Christ; he is my King!
With all my heart to him I’ll sing;
I’ll raise my voice in praise and joy,
In grand amens my tongue employ.
I believe in Christ; he is God’s Son.
On earth to dwell his soul did come.
He healed the sick; the dead he raised.
Good works were his; his name be praised.

2. I believe in Christ; oh blessed name!
As Mary’s Son he came to reign
’Mid mortal men, his earthly kin,
To save them from the woes of sin.
I believe in Christ, who marked the path,
Who did gain all his Father hath,
Who said to men: “Come, follow me,
That ye, my friends, with God may be.”

3. I believe in Christ—my Lord, my God!
My feet he plants on gospel sod.
I’ll worship him with all my might;
He is the source of truth and light.
I believe in Christ; he ransoms me.
From Satan’s grasp he sets me free,
And I shall live with joy and love
In his eternal courts above.

4. I believe in Christ; he stands supreme!
From him I’ll gain my fondest dream;
And while I strive through grief and pain,
His voice is heard: “Ye shall obtain.”
I believe in Christ; so come what may,
With him I’ll stand in that great day
When on this earth he comes again
To rule among the sons of men.

Text: Bruce R. McConkie, 1915–1985. © 1972 IRI




I think McConkie's BYU talk was an over reaction to a problem that was somewhat real. I do not think anyone else would have agreed that we do not worship Christ.

I think it's the other way around. The talk about not worshiping Christ was given in 1982. Those lyrics were written at least 10 years earlier.