Marriage: What is the point?

[_mikwut]

Harmony,

You offer the extreme example for sure, the 20 year rule of thumb could find an exception in your scenario - a Judge very well might say 8-10 years of maintenance while that spouse would obtain education like you did. That is a real possibility. I finished a divorce a year ago where I represented the stay at home Mom, the father made around 175K a year and had done so for 10+ years, they married at 25 and were divorcing at 46 after 21 years of marriage. She had little education (a few college credits) after high school, no marketable skills (she waited tables prior to marriage) and the Judge awarded lifetime maintenance. Would the 6 years younger make a real impact of a difference, maybe? Sometimes it just depends on the Judge.

The key is Colorado statutes attempt (as close as practically possible) to return the parties to the level accustomed to living they had in the marriage.

my regards, mikwut

[_zeezrom]

Just Me,

To be honest, yes. She has said that as a full-time mother, she has felt "stuck".

[_just me]

Just Me,

To be honest, yes. She has said that as a full-time mother, she has felt "stuck".

Hey thanks! Actually, I wondered because I have felt imprisoned. You can check my journal for proof. However, I *now* can honestly say that a lot has to do with me doing what I thought a good Mormon wife/mother was supposed to do. Not really that my husband *made* me feel that way.

Hope that makes sense. In Mormondom marriage and parenthood is often such a package deal that it can be hard to pinpoint where the expectations of one hat ends and the other begins.
It can also be hard to break out of the box we've put ourselves in and figure out how to get unstuck!

[_harmony]

Actually, I wondered because I have felt imprisoned.

That was me, 20+ years ago. I never measured up to those who looked down their exalted BIC noses at me, no matter how hard I tried.

When you start naming the spiders on your ceiling, you know you've got to do something else.

Now, those people can all go to hell. I went back to school, got 3 degrees, found a job that still interests me after 17 years.

The irony is now they're asking me for advice for their single unmarried daughters. Go figure.

[_honorentheos]

Interesting topic, just me. I'm not sure I have any particular answers, but more than anything I would comment that my perspective on the value of marriage has changed a lot over the decade or so I have been married so far.

When I read your OP, I reflected on our marriage's darkest days. I hesitate in sharing because it's personal, but I think it may add to the discussion to consider the bad as well as the good - meaning the bad that didn't break and what the results of it were.

When I returned from my last activation as an Army reservist, my marriage went into a complete tailspin. I had been away from my wife for a long period of time and had, essentially, became a different person. About two weeks to a month into being home, we reached a climax in this trial of our marriage and I found myself asking, seriously, if I wanted to stay in it. My wife, in desperation, told me that she was ready to leave, take our daughter, and move back in with her parents if that was what we decided to do. It was a very real, very vivid moment in my mind when I realized everything from that point forward stood on a razor's edge. I, and I alone, was about to tip it one way or the other and once the decision was made, it was done.

It was at this moment that I asked myself why I would leave. And I realized that, when it came right down to it, I was struggling with something that had eluded me for a while - my life had, for the longest time, felt like I wasn't the one making the decisions but while away I had regained some sense of control over my life. Which seems odd, given that it was in the controlled environment of the military. But that was really what it came down to.

When I looked back at my wife, I found myself reflecting on the reasons why we had gotten married - the things we had in common, the friendship we had shared but seemed to have lost in the scuffle of keeping all of the balls in the air - and most vividly, remembering seeing her in the temple when we were sealed and having a "vision" of sorts. It was what I described later as seeing her as God saw her. More beautiful than seemed humanly possible, pure, full of light. And I decided then I didn't want to just give up without trying.

It wasn't easy afterwards. But the thing that was most interesting to me was how this trial turned out to be the thing that made our marriage better,stronger. We had seen how bad things had gotten while blind to it before, and that we needed to communicate better and much more often. We needed to respect each other's individuality more, but also be supportive. And we explored those things that we shared and loved together.

In the end, my marriage is so much better because of this. I'm not saying I'd like to go through it again. Far from that. But I am glad I decided to try. She's been an amazing person to stand with me in raising our daughter, going through the struggle of examining the Church and how our families responded to our leaving. She's been amazing. And I realize at times like tonight, that I almost walked away.

On a less personal note, I think that the economist Friedrich Hayek said something that I find interesting when it comes to discussions about time-honored cultural structures:

"It may indeed prove to be far the most difficult and not the least important task for human reason rationally to comprehend its own limitations. It is essential for the growth of reason that as individuals we should bow to forces and obey principles which we cannot hope fully to understand, yet on which the advance and even the preservation of civilization depends. Historically this has been achieved by the influence of the various religious creeds and by traditions and superstitions which made man submit to those forces by an appeal to his emotions rather than to his reason. The most dangerous stage in the growth of civilization may well be that in which man has come to regard all these beliefs as superstitions and refuses to accept or to submit to anything which he does not rationally understand. The rationalist whose reason is not sufficient to teach him those limitations of the powers of conscious reason, and who despises all the institutions and customs which have not been consciously designed, would thus become the destroyer of the civilization built upon them. This may well prove a hurdle which man will repeatedly reach, only to be thrown back into barbarism."

Like I said, good questions. I wish I had answers. All I can offer is my own experience. In my mind, the point of my marriage was being fulfilled by having two of the most incredible people in my corner when I really need them. I have two points of contact that I can rely on when my hand slips or a foothold gives somewhere else. And I hope I can be the same for them.

[_zeezrom]

Great stuff Honor. Thanks.

[_LDSToronto]

Harmony,

The Colorado Judge makes a subjective decision based on the statutory elements I listed above. But, I have never seen a divorce in Colorado with a stay at home Mom and a 20 year marriage with no award of maintenance; and yes a lifetime award is very probable in that scenario. There are factors that could change that though, for example if you have a professional degree and have been a stay at home mom well that changes things.

regards, mikwut

That just seems so ... strange. I went back to college at 39 and got my degrees and a job. (and I'm still married... 40 years this winter!). It just seems like "lifetime" is a looooooong time for some poor guy to pay alimony.

Did anyone else thing, for the shortest moment, think that Harmony was 79 years old?!?! I was skimming the thread and thought she said she'd divorced at 39, and was now married for 40 years (to a second husband).

Good thing I went back and re-read...

H.

[_Jason Bourne]

Today my ideal marriage would be:

*A partnership of equals
*We would hold things in common (ie, share money and property)
*Someone who likes me for me and allows me to express myself
*Lots of sexual chemistry/attraction

All which can be done without a marriage.

If you want your second item to hold up legally you need a marriage contract for a good part of that. The marriage contract also adds other protection. Take my wife for example. She has worked some most of our marriage but I have the career that has generated far more income as well as an asset that is worth quite a bit. She worked to help put me through college. What right would she have in any of my future income or the equity I have in my business if we were not married and we went our separate ways? None what so ever. However because of our marriage contract if we were to split she would get half my equity to this point, half my 401k, and probably a substantial annual maintenance payment from me.

However we have no plans to split because we mostly are pretty good at the items you list above and more in our marriage. I like my marriage most days. I think she does as well.

[_Redefined]

Not that I'm any sort of expert on marriage, and maybe it's romanticizing the whole thing, but it's kinda like this, I imagine:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMD8hBsA-RI&ob=av3n

Sorry, Ya have to click it, just me...ya know you want to!

[_Some Schmo]

She has worked some most of our marriage but I have the career that has generated far more income as well as an asset that is worth quite a bit. She worked to help put me through college. What right would she have in any of my future income or the equity I have in my business if we were not married and we went our separate ways? None what so ever. However because of our marriage contract if we were to split she would get half my equity to this point, half my 401k, and probably a substantial annual maintenance payment from me.

This is an important point.

I will never undervalue the sacrifices my wife made to put me through school. She worked three jobs at the same time, and two of them were each enough hours weekly to be considered full time. I worked all through school as well (full time for the final year) but I still have my doubts that I could have gotten through it without her. The salary I currently make (which is about triple what she earns) and have made since leaving school would just be a fantasy were it not for her support. She is absolutely correct to call what she did "an investment in our future." And she would be totally entitled to half of my future earnings in my current career if we were to split.

The only problem she has in all of this is that she'll never get rid of me. Too bad for her!!

Muhahahahahahahahaaaaa....