Runtu wrote:Some of us aren't interested in proving it. For me, what tells me that I have the truth is this:
1. No more excuses. I don't have to make excuses for things that aren't right or don't make sense. I don't have to excuse polyandry, mistranslations of papyri, anachronistic scriptures, etc. When I stopped making excuses, I realized that everything made sense.
But Runtu, I don't make those excuses either.
Simon,
What do you mean you don't make excuses?
Either you proudly and honestly state that Joseph Smith was a scam artist, a fraud, an adulterer who also engaged in polyandry, and a sometimes drunk who set the poorest of examples for others to follow and then lied about it, or you make excuses for these behaviors.
In your case, I am pretty sure it is not the former.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."
DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
Either you proudly and honestly state that Joseph Smith was a scam artist, a fraud, an adulterer who also engaged in polyandry, and a sometimes drunk who set the poorest of examples for others to follow and then lied about it, or you make excuses for these behaviors.
In your case, I am pretty sure it is not the former.
I don't consider them excuses at all. There are valid reasons for what Joseph Smith did or did not do.
Either you proudly and honestly state that Joseph Smith was a scam artist, a fraud, an adulterer who also engaged in polyandry, and a sometimes drunk who set the poorest of examples for others to follow and then lied about it, or you make excuses for these behaviors.
In your case, I am pretty sure it is not the former.
I don't consider them excuses at all. There are valid reasons for what Joseph Smith did or did not do.
So let me get this straight.
Your excuse is that there were valid reasons for the behaviors of Joseph Smith Jr. - behaviors that would not only get him excommunicated from the Church today, but would land the founder of the only true and everlasting gospel upon the face of the earth in prison as a sexual predator and a felon?
Is that what you are saying?
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."
DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
Your excuse is that there were valid reasons for the behaviors of Joseph Smith Jr. - behaviors that would not only get him excommunicated from the Church today, but would land the founder of the only true and everlasting gospel upon the face of the earth in prison as a sexual predator and a felon?
Is that what you are saying?
God made him do it. For some reason He's never fully explained, God wanted secret polygamy to be practiced for several decades on the Nineteenth Century American Frontier.
I have found that as I speak out a bit here and there, it seems to embolden others who have been faking it to come out of the woodwork and gratefully approach me for fellowship.
It almost makes up for the virtual shunning from the other members . . .
There are more Mormons in the pews faking it than I had suspected.
And sometimes, it seems like they are just waiting for somebody to speak out.
All the Best!
--Consiglieri
You sly devil you. This is just your method for outing those evil apostates who are acting as wolves in sheep's clothing. Don't let Will know about this or NOM's will be outed left and right. :)
Your excuse is that there were valid reasons for the behaviors of Joseph Smith Jr. - behaviors that would not only get him excommunicated from the Church today, but would land the founder of the only true and everlasting gospel upon the face of the earth in prison as a sexual predator and a felon?
Is that what you are saying?
It's to hard for many to accept what would be obvious to anyone with no horse in the race. As such they convince themselves that these are valid reasons. I suspect though that people like Runtu who may have used them, probably from the beginning or soon after recognized that they were not really valid. These are the types that will sooner or later stop making what they know are poor excuses. People like your wife seemed to recognize reality for what it was when they were presented with evidence from the church they trusted.
I respectfully disagree. I think we are conditioned to think that Mormons are always extremely hostile and distrusting of insiders who lose their faith, and so we try to slip away quietly and fearfully when we apostize. Frankly, most of the Mormons, my still believing wife and children included, that I have "come out" to, have been friendly and have tried to be understanding. They often bumble in their attempts to "fix" me, but surprisingly it has been a lot less painful than I was conditioned to expect.
Another point is that I have had, what I consider to be, a very healthy, peaceful, and relatively untroubled exit from the faith. Your mileage may vary, of course.
I think that you are right.
In my opinion, people after reading horror stories on NOM or on Postmo become conditiioned that Mormons are hostile toward spouses or anyone who lose their faith. But this is not true. Most of the members that I know have been understanding of people who lose their faith. I think that the problem comes from people who begin to voice strong contrary opinions to the church as some do on this forum. That may get a negative reaction from Mormons and spouses. Confrontation is never the best tactic or way to go.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
Lucretia MacEvil wrote:in my opinion, this expectation to "fake it" is part of the expectation that Mormons require enablement in their faith in every possible way. Testimonies are delicate items and threatened by disbelief in others. Former believers should fake a testimony so as not to harm the testimonies of others. Nonmembers should enable testimonies by expressing respect toward Mormonism and never criticism or mocking (which are really the same thing).
This is nonsense because there are too many generalisms. Who are the Mormons you claim to do this? All active members? Most Mormons just go about doing their life on a daily basis. They actually have no time to mull over people who are faking it or not. Nor do they consider their testimonies to be delicate things. And most Mormons would not give a darn if a former member is now doing his or her own life in ways that they wish because most believe in free agency.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
We aren't really taught to live an authentic life, let alone how to do it. That makes it even harder. We have been taught all our lives to follow a prescribed path that is supposed to work for everyone.
This is bulldinky. Most Mormons are living an authentic life. What is an authentic life ooutside the church: having sex outside of marriage, getting a butt tattooed, getting blasted on friday, watching porn...etc, etc,....What is an authentic life? And what is the prescribed path? To live the teachings found in the new testament? That is what a christian should do and in that, an authentic life can be found. Authenticity, during this postmodern age is what one feels is the correct way to do life regardless of personal consequences.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith