Mormon apologists are necessarily cranks

[_Doctor Scratch]

(I'm still waiting for my first apologist check. Maybe, if it's big enough, I'll give up writing, presenting, and teaching about Islam, Islamic philosophy, and the Qur’an, and editing bilingual medieval texts from the Middle East.)

I didn't realise Apologetics paid based on merit...

Actually, I think it's based more on who's best friends with the Cruise Lady:

http://www.cruiselady.com/cruises.cfm?h=2

DCP has said that he gets what is in effect a $5,000 compensation for each of these cruises. With three cruises lined up for 2012, he's essentially raking in $15,000 just to go on really swank vacations. No wonder the junior-tier apologists are clamoring for a position in the Mopologetic hierarchy.

On a side note: I don't get why DCP is supposedly qualified to "lecture" on the British Isles or the Norwegian Fjords. (Or Mesoamerica, for that matter.)

[_Patriarchal gripe]

why do you post here?

An excellent question. I have no good answer.

What do you get from it?

Exasperation. Other than that, not much.

Seriously.

Dr. P.

It's all in good fun. Don't take your positions so seriously.

It's not like yours or our salvation depends on it.

Seriously.

Stick around, it ain't no thang.

[_jon]

why do you post here?

An excellent question. I have no good answer.

What do you get from it?

Exasperation. Other than that, not much.

Seriously.

So, the only thing you get from is exasperation, yet still you post.
I think you get something else.
People choose to do what best suits them, they make decisions based on what they can live with. Always.
You choose to post here. You would rather be exasperated than not post.
I think you enjoy it. You enjoy the banter, verbal fencing, the rise of an argument. I think you fundamentally like attention, and any attention, even negative, is better than non at all.

I may be wrong, but you won't stop posting, despite your exasperation.

[_Doctor Scratch]

Hi there, Buffalo.

I don't think that most LDS apologists quite fit that definition of "crank," for what it's worth. For one thing, most Mopologists---as you've observed---tend not to be "unshakable" vis-a-vis most aspects of Mormonism. Rather, they tend more to cast doubt on things that Chapel Mormons have traditionally viewed as wholly orthodox and unassailable (e.g., Book of Mormon taking place in the U.S.). I would go so far as to say that there are really very, very few things that apologists have "unshakable" belief in. Furthermore, most LDS "contemporaries" in the U.S. believe in God and Christ in some way, shape, or form, so apologists are not really "cranks" in that regard either.

I think that you definitely have some outliers---e.g., Droopy with his whacked-out, right-wing conspiracy beliefs, or Wade with his CSSAD stuff, or that guy from MST who wrote the book about UFOs. But for the most part, I just don't think that the typical apologist--ranging the gamut from Bushman to Welch--fits with the definition of "crank."

Just my .02.

[_Daniel Peterson]

Actually, I think it's based more on who's best friends with the Cruise Lady:

http://www.cruiselady.com/cruises.cfm?h=2

Lecturing about the Acropolis in Athens, or about the Ottomans, or about the Church of the Holy Sepulcher isn't "apologetics" in any way, shape, or form.

DCP has said that he gets what is in effect a $5,000 compensation for each of these cruises.

Compensation that precisely matches the expenses of my going. I see no cash.

x - x = 0

With three cruises lined up for 2012, he's essentially raking in $15,000 just to go on really swank vacations.

I don't "rake in" $15,000, or even $5, for these trips. The person who wants me to go pays my expenses. That's it. I pocket nothing.

But, otherwise, I wouldn't go.

Scratch expects me to take groups around the Middle East several times each year at my own expense.

Anyway, my idea of a vacation isn't lecturing to groups of tourists all over the Mediterranean and the Middle East about history and archaeology. I enjoy it, just as I enjoy teaching, but neither one is a vacation. When I vacation, I go with just my wife and perhaps a few family members or friends.

No wonder the junior-tier apologists are clamoring for a position in the Mopologetic hierarchy.

Are they?

I've seen no sign of it. Scratch is just making this up out of his ludicrously fertile and maleficent imagination, as he typically does.

On a side note: I don't get why DCP is supposedly qualified to "lecture" on the British Isles or the Norwegian Fjords. (Or Mesoamerica, for that matter.)

This is an issue that Scratch really ought to take up with Larry and Diane Larsen. They made the business decision that bringing me along was worth their while -- mostly because, no matter how much it may distress poor Scratch, my presence as a "headliner' attracts customers. If Scratch disagrees with their decision, he should make his case to them.

But, of course, Scratch plainly doesn't even know how these things work. In Israel, Jordan, and Egypt, which are land tours, I'm there as a "color commentator" speaking at each of the sites and on the bus between sites. There, I speak as a trained expert on the Middle East.

On the few cruises I've taken, I simply give three or four lectures on topics that I've chosen, that may or may not have anything to do with the area. (That's what I was requested to do.) I don't lead the tours, and, unless I have some special expertise on a particular site (as, referring to the Mediterranean cruise that I accompanied in May, I do for Athens and Rome and Istanbul and Ephesus, but not for Barcelona, Florence, or Nice), I don't speak on location. So, for instance, on this most recent cruise, I spoke about Islam and about Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism, and I gave a couple of background lectures on the Greek, Byzantine, and Ottoman history. I haven't yet decided what I'll do for the British Isles. Nor have I decided for the Norwegian fjords, either, although (partially because I have family there) I've spent a considerable amount of time in and about Norway and have been reading about the Vikings since I was a boy.

Scratch is perfectly free to go on one or both of next year's cruises with me, or to Israel. He may have to get a second paper route, though. And he most definitely shouldn't be spending his two cents with such reckless abandon.

[_moksha]

As a TBM, I would have considered critics (of Mormonism, Conservatism, whatever view I held) to be cranks. I now realize they are, for the most part, the folks who are open to having their opinions and viewpoints critiqued.

Quite possibly the greatest apostate post EVER!

Good point. When they say crank, we can shout apostate. Later this afternoon we can go hunting for chupacabras.

[Guest]

things that Chapel Mormons have traditionally viewed as wholly orthodox and unassailable (e.g., Book of Mormon taking place in the U.S.).

When I was growing up in southern California back in the 1920s, there was a little Mormon newspaper called the California Intermountain News. Copies of it were always scattered around in our ward building, and in others that I visited.

It routinely featured ads for tours to "Book of Mormon lands" in Mexico and Central America, and Mormon history tours to Missouri, Ohio, New York, and Illinois.

Oddly, I don't recall ever having seen a "Book of Mormon lands" tour advertised for Missouri, Ohio, New York, and Illinois.

that guy from MST who wrote the book about UFOs.

Off the top of your head, Scratch -- right now -- what are a half dozen specific features of the content of that book to which you take exception?

[_stemelbow]

Dr. P.

It's all in good fun. Don't take your positions so seriously.

It's not like yours or our salvation depends on it.

Seriously.

Stick around, it ain't no thang.

uh...I think its quite clear its not that people disagree with his position that makes his time here so exasperating. I think that people don't acknowledge that and seem to just wish he'd shut up and fake it is pretty sad, considering there's a shut up and fake it thread on this topic complaining about LDS. Oh boy...

[_Doctor Scratch]

Wow, Dr. Peterson.... You get to lecture on a topic of your own choosing? The deal just got a whole lot sweeter! I mean, what---you show up for an hour or so to deliver four or five lectures, and the rest of the time it's basically a vacation, no? For approx. $5,000 worth of compensation in the form of free cruise tickets, that seems like one hell of a deal.

my presence as a "headliner' attracts customers.

That sure is interesting. I wasn't aware that you were in the Mopologetic game in order to bulk up your celebrity status.

things that Chapel Mormons have traditionally viewed as wholly orthodox and unassailable (e.g., Book of Mormon taking place in the U.S.).

When I was growing up in southern California back in the 1920s,

I had no idea you were that old. You look great for an octo- or nonagenarian.

there was a little Mormon newspaper called the California Intermountain News. Copies of it were always scattered around in our ward building, and in others that I visited.

It routinely featured ads for tours to "Book of Mormon lands" in Mexico and Central America, and Mormon history tours to Missouri, Ohio, New York, and Illinois.

Oddly, I don't recall ever having seen a "Book of Mormon lands" tour advertised for Missouri, Ohio, New York, and Illinois.

My two responses to this are:

1) Rodney Meldrum, and
2) What percentage of LDS were living in southern California during the "1920s"?

that guy from MST who wrote the book about UFOs.

Off the top of your head, Scratch -- right now -- what are a half dozen specific features of the content of that book to which you take exception?

Gee, off the top of my head? I'll tell you what: if you're willing to go out on a limb and endorse the book as being non-"crank-ish," and if you're willing to stand in support of the book's techniques, observations, science, etc., I might be willing to go down this path with you.

[_Daniel Peterson]

Wow, Dr. Peterson.... You get to lecture on a topic of your own choosing?

On the cruises, yes.

Jealous?

The land tours, which I've done more often, are considerably more demanding and much more constrained.

The deal just got a whole lot sweeter! I mean, what---you show up for an hour or so to deliver four or five lectures, and the rest of the time it's basically a vacation, no?

Not quite entirely, but something along those lines, yes.

I'd have to be a fool not to go on such a trip when it's offered and when I can.

Speaking of which, you apparently aren't going on such trips.

Why not?

You say that nobody's offering you the opportunity? Nobody's asked you?

No wonder you're so jealous.

For approx. $5,000 worth of compensation in the form of free cruise tickets, that seems like one hell of a deal.

It's pretty good, yes.

And presumably the businesspeople who offer it to me think it's a good deal for them, as well. If it weren't in their interest, I don't believe they'd do it. It's what economists call a free market exchange.

my presence as a "headliner' attracts customers.

That sure is interesting. I wasn't aware that you were in the Mopologetic game in order to bulk up your celebrity status.

I never said that I was, of course.

That's merely your characteristically defamatory accusation.

It's not true. (Your accusations never are.)

[My two responses to this are:

1) Rodney Meldrum,

That's a name, not an argument.

and
2) What percentage of LDS were living in southern California during the "1920s"?

The number of members of the Church living in southern California was substantial when I was a boy. It still is, as I believe you know.

Gee, off the top of my head? I'll tell you what: if you're willing to go out on a limb and endorse the book as being non-"crank-ish," and if you're willing to stand in support of the book's techniques, observations, science, etc., I might be willing to go down this path with you.

In other words, you haven't read it.