Question for the Atheists.

[_Fence Sitter]

To equate process this with choosing to believe in God is a silly comparison. For one thing, choosing to believe in God, and understand the why's and wherefore's, came after developing a degree of mental maturity, not before.

Regards,
MG

Does that mean you think that adults that do not believe in God are more or less mature than those that do?

[_beastie]

I believed in Santa Claus in my childhood because I didn't have the mental maturity to do/think otherwise. I later, after having developed the mental maturity to do so, chose to disbelieve in Santa Claus. The choice was based upon having the mental maturity to do so.

To equate process this with choosing to believe in God is a silly comparison. For one thing, choosing to believe in God, and understand the why's and wherefore's, came after developing a degree of mental maturity, not before.

Regards,
MG

To assert that you CHOSE to disbelieve in Santa Claus implies that the evidence is not persuasive one way or the other. So you just choose: belief or nonbelief?

If evidence is persuasive, you don't have to choose. You just believe or you don't.

[_beastie]

I hereby posit the existence of The Angelic Beast. The Angelic Beast is our creator, but has chosen to hide her existence in order to test our faith. But every time you experience a numinous event, whether or not you even realize it, The Angelic Beast caused that event. It's the Angelic Beast communicating with you. If you don't understand this, it's because you're hardened of heart, or less mature, or psychologically damaged.

The Angelic Beast has chosen me to communicate her will to mankind. This should resolve any disputes about her existence.

[_mentalgymnast]

I think that when people "choose" to believe, what that likely means is that they came to a point in their lives when they recognized, on some level, that they no longer believed - and they were uncomfortable with that. They wanted to believe. So they "chose" to disregard what their own inner voice was telling them, and decided to fake it until they could make it. Given how susceptible human beings are to this type of engineering, it is quite likely they eventually will believe again.

I have witnessed this process firsthand with my sister. To be frank, MG, I think that's what you've done, as well. In watching you over the years, it appeared to me you were never comfortable with your growing disbelief and made a conscious choice to find a way to squelch that disbelief. So you chose to believe.

Well, sorta, but not quite. As I've matured and progressed I've realized incrementally that the world is a messy place. I'm sure you've noticed that. Not all black and white, but also shades of gray. I've also came to see that the "restored gospel/church", in particular, is no different. So the decision (choice) has been more like, "Well, can I continue to believe in God/Christ/Mormonism while at the same time I'm finding that everything doesn't fit in a nice, little, tidy box with no imperfections or messiness that are part of the package?"

For a good part of my life I had indeed thought that my life, the world, religion, etc., were somewhat predictable, straightforward, black and white, and static in nature.

So it did involve a choice. It wasn't, however, that I no longer believed...period...end of story. It was more like, "Well, now I have to make a choice, to continue along the path of plausible/hopeful belief, or toss it completely." I chose incrementally (over a period of time) to stay with the believers, even if I was personally a changed person, in some respects, from my earlier days of innocent belief and relative stability.

Yes, along the line there has been a certain amount of "fake it till you make it"...naturally that's what you would expect if you're continuing along the same path as others around you and you're trying to fit in.

Sure, there are the pressures and discomforts of thinking outside of the box while all around you it seems as if everyone else is just "happy as a clam" without any noticeable discomfort or cognitive dissonance in regards to things Mormon.

So as far as choice...

Yes, I have chosen to stay with the believers. And yes, I believe, plausibly. But my belief is intertwined with an understanding/realization that I don't know anything of a metaphysical nature to be TRUE without a shadow of a doubt. Some supposedly do. More power to them. In many respects I'm more of a doubter/questioner than a true believer, but at this point in time I find it reasonable to continue on the path of faith.

There's stuff that makes sense. There's stuff that doesn't. I'm Ok with that for now. Half the fun is trying to make sense out of all this stuff!

Regards,
MG

[_beastie]

Thanks for your forthright answer, MG.

My sister and I traveled the same path for years. We were both active LDS, married in the temple, serving in callings, paying tithing, etc. The door opened when we (along with my mother) read Mormon Enigma. We started to read other books about early polygamy and church history. We both had serious doubts.

My sister decided that the cost of leaving the church was too high. Her husband was a faithful believer, she'd already raised her boys to believe. They were missionary age at that time. It was too late. She told me that she believed several things would happen if she left. She thought she might end her marriage, which bored her. Then she thought her children would hate her. So she made a conscious decision. She wanted to remain in the church, but to do so, she had to reinvent herself as a believer. First she immersed herself in FARMS material (through the mail back then), and then she refused to continue to study early church history. Ironically, she actually advised me to leave the church before my children grew up in it. (My oldest was then 7.) She CHOSE to believe.

I didn't have the emotional incentives to stay in the church. I was content to let the chips fall where they may. I went on to lose all belief in the church and in god. I continued to study and think. I didn't have to choose disbelief. I simply reached the point where all belief in the truthfulness of the LDS church had evaporated.

I think you can "choose" at certain points on the path. But I also think there is usually a point of no return. You can't put the horses back in the barn.

I ask you to respect the fact that I didn't choose to disbelieve. I literally can no more believe in a godbeing and the LDS church than I can Santa Claus. I think the evidence for each is roughly equivalent.

[_mentalgymnast]

To equate process this with choosing to believe in God is a silly comparison. For one thing, choosing to believe in God, and understand the why's and wherefore's, came after developing a degree of mental maturity, not before.

Regards,
MG

Does that mean you think that adults that do not believe in God are more or less mature than those that do?

You know I can't place a value judgment on that.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

Do you choose to disbelieve in Brahman or any of the Eastern religion deities?

I haven't made a choice to disbelieve or believe in Brahman or any of the Eastern religion deities.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

Wishful thinking? More than that.

It just makes common sense.

Why does it make any more sense to disbelieve in a creator/god responsible for human beings on earth? Simply because you don't have the observational tools to see the "man behind the curtain?"

Regards,
MG

OK MG, what evidence is it that I have missed because I lack the observation al tools? Please be specific about this evidence and the direct implications of your evidence.

Any evidence that would be a result of God revealing himself via another sensory mechanism besides the five senses. The thing is, each person is individually responsible for determining whether or not information can come from God via this means of delivery.

I can't speak for you.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

I went on to lose all belief in the church and in god.

That's what I do have a hard time wrapping my mind around. The church part, yeah. But to come to the point where you lose all belief in God? I can respect that, but I honestly don't get why a person would become such an absolutest when it comes to disbelief in God. Agnosticism I get. Atheism I don't.

But to each his or her own.

My sympathies are with you in regards to some of the hard family issues you've had to deal with. At times life does suck, big time. But OTOH, life is also a beautiful thing.

Regards,
MG

[_Fence Sitter]

Do you choose to disbelieve in Brahman or any of the Eastern religion deities?

I haven't made a choice to disbelieve or believe in Brahman or any of the Eastern religion deities.

Regards,
MG

Do you believe in them or not?