Mormonism is not "Christianity"

[_beastie]

From a purely LDS perspective, what is the atonement?

(I will be in and out of here, so you might not catch a reply quickly)

The atonement is the act by which Jesus Christ paid the price demanded for the sins and suffering of the entire world. Without this act, human beings would be powerless to be reunited with God, and would never be resurrected after death, either.

[_beastie]

During the more than a thousand years in which the Catholic church taught that infants had to be baptized in order to avoid limbo, and taught that people who were not baptized Catholic were going to hell, was it a Christian faith?

[_stemelbow]

Beastie,

I have to say after reading this thread, my respect for you has risen considerably (not that it was ever low). You have made a very good case, overall.

[_MsJack]

Isn't she saying that Christianity isn't Judaism and Mormonism isn't Christianity?

I'm saying that, even though Christianity evolved out of Judaism and shares many elements with Judaism, it's probably best to classify Christianity as its own religion---as "not Judaism." Likewise, even though Mormonism evolved out of Christianity and shares many elements with Christianity, it might be best to classify Mormonism as its own religion, as "not Christianity."

Might be. My feelings on whether or not that's actually what's best tend to fluctuate.

That said, most people who argue that Mormonism is "not Christian" try to do so based on the claim that its teachings are heretical or false or not in agreement with what the majority of Christianity currently believes. I don't think these arguments work. I don't think determining what's true or false or orthodox or heterodox or heretical is a very good role for religious taxonomy, and arguing that Mormonism is Christian in a taxonomic sense can absolutely work.

It seems she seems to concede that Christian by definition is belief in the "divinity and atonement of Jesus Christ, the Bible, and a triune Godhead"

Not necessarily. But I think these are things that other people tend to contest when they accuse Mormonism of non-Christianity, and I do think Mormons believe in all of them in at least some sense.

It takes my breath away a little thinking how nuanced and complex this whole thing needs to be from an evangelical or other mainstream Christian perspective.

It's a nuanced and complex issue. in my opinion, the evangelicals who say "No, of course Mormons aren't Christians" and the Mormons who say "Of course we are, and how could anyone say otherwise?" are both guilty of oversimplifying the matter and thus talking past each other.

That's ironic, kinda, considering evangelicals think they are right and Catholics aren't, and vice versa. According to this line of reasoning nearly every other Christian sect is supra-Christian too.

At no point in my argument did I say anything about which groups are right and which ones are wrong, so I'm not sure how you're arriving at this conclusion.

[_beastie]

Beastie,

I have to say after reading this thread, my respect for you has risen considerably (not that it was ever low). You have made a very good case, overall.

Thanks!

[_stemelbow]

It's a nuanced and complex issue. in my opinion, the evangelicals who say "No, of course Mormons aren't Christians" and the Mormons who say "Of course we are, and how could anyone say otherwise?" are both guilty of oversimplifying the matter and thus talking past each other.

I think it becomes a complex issue when people wish to figure out how to exclude a clear Christian group as non-Christian if you ask me. There's just no reason to make it complex, if you ask me. What is a Christian belief? Clearly its beleiving Jesus Christ, as the Son of God, is the Savior. To make it more complex than that isn't doing anyone any favors, if you ask me.

At no point in my argument did I say anything about which groups are right and which ones are wrong, so I'm not sure how you're arriving at this conclusion.

Granted. My point is, you suggest LDS are supra-Christian because, essentially, they claim they are the correct Christian group. I don't know how that works, since each Christian group thinks they are correct. Why aren't Protestants in general Supra-Christian on those grounds? Why aren't Catholics too? I don't see how that makes sense.

Thanks for responding.

[_beastie]

I'm saying that, even though Christianity evolved out of Judaism and shares many elements with Judaism, it's probably best to classify Christianity as its own religion---as "not Judaism." Likewise, even though Mormonism evolved out of Christianity and shares many elements with Christianity, it might be best to classify Mormonism as its own religion, as "not Christianity."

Might be. My feelings on whether or not that's actually what's best tend to fluctuate.

The reason I think this argument could have some weight is that it correlates, in some ways, with how the LDS church views itself.

That said, most people who argue that Mormonism is "not Christian" try to do so based on the claim that its teachings are heretical or false or not in agreement with what the majority of Christianity currently believes. I don't think these arguments work. I don't think determining what's true or false or orthodox or heterodox or heretical is a very good role for religious taxonomy, and arguing that Mormonism is Christian in a taxonomic sense can absolutely work.

YES! This is what I'm arguing, that Mormonism is Christian in a taxonomic sense.

I understand that many mainstream Christians aren't going to think Mormonism is "right". They're going to think that it teaches incorrect things. Likewise, Mormons have the same opinion about mainstream Christianity. I'm not trying to argue that mainstream Christians have to accept LDS teachings as correct, or vice versa.

I'm arguing that as long as the LDS church is based on one central idea: that Jesus Christ's atonement is the only thing that can unite human beings with God, then it should be fairly considered as a Christian religion. Maybe not a Christian religion people agree with, but the same could be said about the attitudes different denominations already have toward one another.

I also argue that anyone who insists that the LDS church is NOT based on that one central idea does not have a good grasp of the LDS church or its teachings.

[_beastie]

Granted. My point is, you suggest LDS are supra-Christian because, essentially, they claim they are the correct Christian group. I don't know how that works, since each Christian group thinks they are correct. Why aren't Protestants in general Supra-Christian on those grounds? Why aren't Catholics too? I don't see how that makes sense.

Thanks for responding.

I'll interject my opinion here. I think that MsJack's argument about "supra Christianity" could have some merit because it correlates with how the LDS church views itself. The LDS church believes that the entire Christian world was in a state of apostasy. That's why a complete restoration was needed.

The point of contention would be, of course, that LDS believe their restored religion matches what Jesus Christ put together. So, at that point, there would be problems with Jack's idea.

But determining what, exactly, Jesus Christ taught and put together is the whole problem. That's what I've repeated tried to point out to Hoops, to no avail. Christians argued HEATEDLY about it for hundreds of years before adopting the Nicean creed. It's hardly clear cut. I imagine each denomination likes to think that their own version of Christianity most closely mirrors what Jesus established.

So, in the end, I do agree with you that Jack's idea is probably too complicated. But I think it does have more merit than the simple "Mormons can't be Christian because they teach the wrong details" argument.

[_Jersey Girl]

stem

I think it becomes a complex issue when people wish to figure out how to exclude a clear Christian group as non-Christian if you ask me. There's just no reason to make it complex, if you ask me. What is a Christian belief? Clearly its beleiving Jesus Christ, as the Son of God, is the Savior. To make it more complex than that isn't doing anyone any favors, if you ask me.

Okay, stem, now I'm going to play Devil's Advocate with you. :-) Let me make a little list of questions for you to answer and I hope that you're willing. (It's okay if you say no)

1. When you say, "believing Jesus Christ as the Son of God, what do you mean? Do you mean the ONLY Son of God?

2. When you say that (paraphrasing) "Jesus Christ is the Savior", what does that mean to you?


Also, I think these types of topics are, by nature, highly complex and we should expect communicating or examining them, to be a complex process.

[_Fence Sitter]

Stem,

My advice to a man who dates three women at the same time is to RUN!!!