Mormonism is not "Christianity"

[_Jersey Girl]

Stem,

My advice to a man who dates three women at the same time is to RUN!!!

What is this in reply to?

[_stemelbow]

Okay, stem, now I'm going to play Devil's Advocate with you. :-) Let me make a little list of questions for you to answer and I hope that you're willing. (It's okay if you say no)

1. When you say, "believing Jesus Christ as the Son of God, what do you mean? Do you mean the ONLY Son of God?

2. When you say that (paraphrasing) "Jesus Christ is the Savior", what does that mean to you?


Also, I think these types of topics are, by nature, highly complex and we should expect communicating or examining them, to be a complex process.

I see where you're going with this. The problem with this then is how complex can we make the definition of any word on this same type of reasoning?

Looking up any random word I can think of might cause me to parse it the same way--but to what end? Let's try it.

I look up the word fidelity on Merriam-Webster's online dictionary and see the definition: "the quality or state of being faithful".

Let's say Jacob says he practices fidelity in his marriage. What does he mean by that? When he says he's faithful does that mean the same thing as it means to you, or his wife for that matter? It might, but then again, it might not. Perhaps he carries on deep discussions with a friend from work, who is a female. His wife, we assume, takes issue with it and finds his behavior as unfaithful. but he maintains he is being faithful--because essentially he's just communicating with a friend. Why is he not practicing fidelity? Perhaps he is? Will this parsing and defining never end?

[_Jersey Girl]

Okay, stem, now I'm going to play Devil's Advocate with you. :-) Let me make a little list of questions for you to answer and I hope that you're willing. (It's okay if you say no)

1. When you say, "believing Jesus Christ as the Son of God, what do you mean? Do you mean the ONLY Son of God?

2. When you say that (paraphrasing) "Jesus Christ is the Savior", what does that mean to you?


Also, I think these types of topics are, by nature, highly complex and we should expect communicating or examining them, to be a complex process.

I see where you're going with this. The problem with this then is how complex can we make the definition of any word on this same type of reasoning?

Looking up any random word I can think of might cause me to parse it the same way--but to what end? Let's try it.

I look up the word fidelity on Merriam-Webster's online dictionary and see the definition: "the quality or state of being faithful".

Let's say Jacob says he practices fidelity in his marriage. What does he mean by that? When he says he's faithful does that mean the same thing as it means to you, or his wife for that matter? It might, but then again, it might not. Perhaps he carries on deep discussions with a friend from work, who is a female. His wife, we assume, takes issue with it and finds his behavior as unfaithful. but he maintains he is being faithful--because essentially he's just communicating with a friend. Why is he not practicing fidelity? Perhaps he is? Will this parsing and defining never end?

Could you answer the questions that I posed to you, stem?

[_stemelbow]

Here goes, Jersey Girl:

When you say, "believing Jesus Christ as the Son of God, what do you mean? Do you mean the ONLY Son of God?

What do you mean by ONLY Son of God? You mean that Christians don't think that any particular Christian male is not a son of God? Or what?

2. When you say that (paraphrasing) "Jesus Christ is the Savior", what does that mean to you?

By Him and His great work of atonement humans can be saved.

[_Jersey Girl]

Jersey Girl: When you say, "believing Jesus Christ as the Son of God, what do you mean? Do you mean the ONLY Son of God?


stem: What do you mean by ONLY Son of God? You mean that Christians don't think that any particular Christian male is not a son of God? Or what?

I mean only son. The only son of God. As in...there is one son of God.

(I'll be back, I have to get something done...)

[_Fence Sitter]

Stem,

My advice to a man who dates three women at the same time is to RUN!!!

What is this in reply to?

Stem in a discussion with three highly capable and intelligent women. Those sort of situations, like dating three women at the same time, usually end up bad for the man. I expect no less here.

[_MsJack]

I think it becomes a complex issue when people wish to figure out how to exclude a clear Christian group as non-Christian if you ask me. [SNIP] What is a Christian belief? Clearly its beleiving Jesus Christ, as the Son of God, is the Savior.

I don't think either of these things are simple or clear. The Baha'i believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Savior, yet I wouldn't categorize their religion as "Christian." Christocentrism is also a requirement, and the Baha'i aren't christocentric.

Granted. My point is, you suggest LDS are supra-Christian because, essentially, they claim they are the correct Christian group.

No, I suggest that LDS are supra-Christian because they have, by their own admission, broken away from, taken away from, and added to what the majority of the Christian tradition has taught and believed throughout history. They have radically changed and re-defined what Christianity is and how traditional Christian concepts are understood, and on top of this, they want little to nothing to do with what the body of Christian believers has been saying and doing for the past ~1800 years. It has little to do with whether they think they are the correct Christian group.

The same most emphatically cannot be said for Catholics and Protestants, who both see themselves as connected to the larger Christian tradition in some way and view the lives of Christians who have lived for the past ~1800 years as part of their heritage. It can't even be said for Restorationist groups like the Campbellites, who don't want much to do with the Christian tradition that has come before them, but haven't radically redefined widely-held, key Christian beliefs in spite of this.

It's true that Mormons see themselves as embodying the true teachings of Jesus Christ as he originally taught them, but that works for my Jews-Christians analogy as well because the early Christians saw themselves as embodying the true faith of Moses and the Old Testament prophets. Furthermore, as beastie touched on, Mormons can't really show that all of their distinctive beliefs come from what Jesus Christ anciently taught and have instead resorted to saying that the record of what Jesus taught is missing some of the things they believe now or some things were only revealed by God in our day and age.

[_stemelbow]

Jersey Girl: When you say, "believing Jesus Christ as the Son of God, what do you mean? Do you mean the ONLY Son of God?


stem: What do you mean by ONLY Son of God? You mean that Christians don't think that any particular Christian male is not a son of God? Or what?

I mean only son. The only son of God. As in...there is one son of God.

(I'll be back, I have to get something done...)

Well when I say Jesus Christ as the Son of God I don't have anything other than Jesus is the Father's Son. But if you'd press me I don't see why I'd suggest the Father only has one son.

[_beastie]

Jersey Girl: When you say, "believing Jesus Christ as the Son of God, what do you mean? Do you mean the ONLY Son of God?


stem: What do you mean by ONLY Son of God? You mean that Christians don't think that any particular Christian male is not a son of God? Or what?

I mean only son. The only son of God. As in...there is one son of God.

(I'll be back, I have to get something done...)

LDS believe that Jesus is the only begotten son of God in terms of THIS life. In the pre-existence, we were all spirit children of God.

[_stemelbow]

I don't think either of these things are simple or clear. The Baha'i believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Savior, yet I wouldn't categorize their religion as "Christian." Christocentrism is also a requirement, and the Baha'i aren't christocentric.

But Mormonism is Christocentric. Let's not confuse it. Baha'i, as far as I'm aware, don't maintain that they are Christian, so I don't get how this applies.

No, I suggest that LDS are supra-Christian because they have, by their own admission, broken away from, taken away from, and added to what the majority of the Christian tradition has taught and believed throughout history. They have radically changed and re-defined what Christianity is and how traditional Christian concepts are understood, and on top of this, they want little to nothing to do with what the body of Christian believers has been saying and doing for the past ~1800 years. It has little to do with whether they think they are the correct Christian group.

I think this is overly vague and perhaps a bit too simplistic to mean much. Afterall what else is Protestantism but that which you define (with caveats of "radically changed and re-defined" being somewhat subject here).

The same most emphatically cannot be said for Catholics and Protestants, who both see themselves as connected to the larger Christian tradition in some way and view the lives of Christians who have lived for the past ~1800 years as part of their heritage.

But you're kdding yourself if you think Mormons don't in any way see themselves connected to the larger Christian tradition. Indeed, from whence did the faith itself arise if not from the larger Christian tradition? Oh well.

It can't even be said for Restorationist groups like the Campbellites, who don't want much to do with the Christian tradition that has come before them, but haven't radically redefined widely-held, key Christian beliefs in spite of this.

Its just far to subjective and technical a complaint it seems.

It's true that Mormons see themselves as embodying the true teachings of Jesus Christ as he originally taught them, but that works for my Jews-Christians analogy as well because the early Christians saw themselves as embodying the true faith of Moses and the Old Testament prophets. Furthermore, as beastie touched on, Mormons can't really show that all of their distinctive beliefs come from what Jesus Christ anciently taught and have instead resorted to saying that the record of what Jesus taught is missing some of the things they believe now or some things were only revealed by God in our day and age.

yeah but what is Protestanism if not an effort to throw out the "bad" in catholicism and make a return to what is asumed to be biblical Christianity? Indeed, in my experience many an Evangelical tries to say Catholicism is not Christian because of this.