Question for the Atheists.

[_mentalgymnast]

I think that your position must be a bit unusual for a believing LDS. Does your belief in the god the LDS worship not exclude belief in the eastern deities? Would it not exclude belief in any other god?

I also have to say that I find your neutrality a bit puzzling from an intellectual PoV as well...

LDS Article of Faith:

11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

Those who choose to worship eastern deities are free to do so. Personally, I have not chosen that path. Of course, the environment that I was raised in plays a part in the choices that I have made. We make choices from readily available options. And as I think you and others have said, sometimes we don't really make a choice initially, we just kind of fall into things. Our choices are made downwind, so to speak.

I remain neutral in regards to even feeling a nudge to make a choice as to whether or not I can or would believe in an eastern religion of some stripe, at least for now. At some point in time if I felt as though I needed to shop around and look for another deity or no deity at all, I'd check Buddhism and Taoism out first and then go from there if I didn't find anything that made my boat float.

Off and on I've studied world religions here and there, so don't get me wrong. It's not like I don't have any clue as to what other systems of belief there are on the shopping list of religions, but Mormonism is what I fell into and to be honest, except for some of the quirky stuff here and there, the doctrines and beliefs are a pretty good fit with what I could picture the universe looking like. A place where God provides ways and means for his children/creations to achieve and be all that they can be through personal choice and very little pressure from his end.

Like the Book of Mormon says, we live in a world where we can act and be acted upon and learn and grow through that experience. Very little interference from God.

Regards,
MG

[_malkie]

I think that your position must be a bit unusual for a believing LDS. Does your belief in the god the LDS worship not exclude belief in the eastern deities? Would it not exclude belief in any other god?

I also have to say that I find your neutrality a bit puzzling from an intellectual PoV as well...

LDS Article of Faith:

11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

Those who choose to worship eastern deities are free to do so. Personally, I have not chosen that path. Of course, the environment that I was raised in plays a part in the choices that I have made. We make choices from readily available options. And as I think you and others have said, sometimes we don't really make a choice initially, we just kind of fall into things. Our choices are made downwind, so to speak.

I remain neutral in regards to even feeling a nudge to make a choice as to whether or not I can or would believe in an eastern religion of some stripe, at least for now. At some point in time if I felt as though I needed to shop around and look for another deity or no deity at all, I'd check Buddhism and Taoism out first and then go from there if I didn't find anything that made my boat float.

Off and on I've studied world religions here and there, so don't get me wrong. It's not like I don't have any clue as to what other systems of belief there are on the shopping list of religions, but Mormonism is what I fell into and to be honest, except for some of the quirky stuff here and there, the doctrines and beliefs are a pretty good fit with what I could picture the universe looking like. A place where God provides ways and means for his children/creations to achieve and be all that they can be through personal choice and very little pressure from his end.

Like the Book of Mormon says, we live in a world where we can act and be acted upon and learn and grow through that experience. Very little interference from God.

Regards,
MG

I must say that I never thought that the 11th AoF meant that it was OK for believing LDS to worship eastern deities, but I'll refrain from disputing the point. Or am I misunderstanding you?

[_Fence Sitter]

LDS Article of Faith:


11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.


Those who choose to worship eastern deities are free to do so. Personally, I have not chosen that path. Of course, the environment that I was raised in plays a part in the choices that I have made. We make choices from readily available options. And as I think you and others have said, sometimes we don't really make a choice initially, we just kind of fall into things. Our choices are made downwind, so to speak.

I remain neutral in regards to even feeling a nudge to make a choice as to whether or not I can or would believe in an eastern religion of some stripe, at least for now. At some point in time if I felt as though I needed to shop around and look for another deity or no deity at all, I'd check Buddhism and Taoism out first and then go from there if I didn't find anything that made my boat float.

Off and on I've studied world religions here and there, so don't get me wrong. It's not like I don't have any clue as to what other systems of belief there are on the shopping list of religions, but Mormonism is what I fell into and to be honest, except for some of the quirky stuff here and there, the doctrines and beliefs are a pretty good fit with what I could picture the universe looking like. A place where God provides ways and means for his children/creations to achieve and be all that they can be through personal choice and very little pressure from his end.

Like the Book of Mormon says, we live in a world where we can act and be acted upon and learn and grow through that experience. Very little interference from God.

Regards,
MG

I like your phrase "Our choices are made downwind." On that we agree. In my case I found it to be reason to doubt rather the go with the flow, so to speak.

[_mentalgymnast]

I must say that I never thought that the 11th AoF meant that it was OK for believing LDS to worship eastern deities, but I'll refrain from disputing the point. Or am I misunderstanding you?

Ha. I didn't express that very well. My meaning was that others outside of the LDS church are free to worship how, where, or what they may without being trammeled on by the LDS folks.

LDS folks are worshiping the "One True God".

Just had to squeeze that in.

Regards,
MG

[_malkie]

I must say that I never thought that the 11th AoF meant that it was OK for believing LDS to worship eastern deities, but I'll refrain from disputing the point. Or am I misunderstanding you?

Ha. I didn't express that very well. My meaning was that others outside of the LDS church are free to worship how, where, or what they may without being trammeled on by the LDS folks.

LDS folks are worshiping the "One True God".

Just had to squeeze that in.

Regards,
MG

You really had my head spinning there for a while. (;=)

I guess at this point all I can say is that I wish you well in your journey through life, whether your path of faith is something you "chose" or not.

As for me, I still cannot say that I know that there is no god, only that I think the likelihood is vanishingly small. And my default position remains one of disbelief until enough evidence accumulated that I could not deny the existence of god. I don't expect that to happen.

[_Mad Viking]

You're being terribly inconsistent. You started off this thread saying that the only method of determining truth we have is our five senses. Now you're telling me I'm responsible to figure out how god is providing me evidence through some other means.

Through natural means that is true. We have the five senses. We can obtain information...truth...through these filters of sensory information. Whether there is truth to be received by some other means beyond the five senses is an individual quest/search. You are responsible for whether you pursue this path or not. There may be nothing there to be had...but only you can determine that. This is simply all I'm saying.

I don't see where that is hogwash.

Regards,
MG

Neither you or a god have demonstrated that there is a god trying to communicate with me by ANY means (supernatural or otherwise). Hell, existence hasn't even been established, let alone this being's desire or capability to communicate with me. So... why would I even begin such an endeavor? Let's establish their existence first. So... have you got any evidence that this being exists?

[_Sophocles]

Neither you or a god have demonstrated that there is a god trying to communicate with me by ANY means (supernatural or otherwise). Hell, existence hasn't even been established, let alone this being's desire or capability to communicate with me. So... why would I even begin such an endeavor?

Easy. Because you approached this whole exercise with an overwhelming desire to believe in a personal god in the first place. Since there is no physical evidence of any such being, your only recourse is to propose some other source of knowledge or truth outside the five senses. Clearly this is an ad hoc maneuver to salvage the possibility of the existence of gods out of all evidence to the contrary, because no extra-sensory communication with supernatural beings is necessary to explain the origins of the universe or anything in the physical world.

Incidentally, this same maneuver is used to support every other scam and hoax on the planet. Whenever physical evidence is lacking, an appeal to the supernatural is not far behind.

MG, if your god is real, why would he choose to communicate to his children in the same manner utilized by psychics, astral projectionists, and sorcerers? Why would a god that truly exists use the same methods that charlatans use to deceive their marks?

Proposing a realm of truth beyond what can be perceived by the five senses is the last refuge of every crackpot theory that is not supported by evidence. Why would the all powerful creator of the universe choose to dwell there?

[_mentalgymnast]

MG, if your god is real, why would he choose to communicate to his children in the same manner utilized by psychics, astral projectionists, and sorcerers? Why would a god that truly exists use the same methods that charlatans use to deceive their marks?

And you are an expert on how God would communicate in some manner other than using the five senses? How do you know that God would communicate "in the same manner"? To do that he would have to use the exact same procedure or technique that psychics, astral projectionists, and sorcerers use.

I don't think that you can demonstrate that this is true.

God may communicate via means other than the five senses, but to lump that means and ways in with similar procedures or techniques that these other folks use is rather incongruous.

Why would the all knowing creator/god of all human beings on the earth be using the same techniques and procedures to communicate with human beings on the earth as these charlatans do?

Doesn't make sense.

I would think God is better than that.

Regards,
MG

[_Fence Sitter]

Why would the all knowing creator/god of all human beings on the earth be using the same techniques and procedures to communicate with human beings on the earth as these charlatans do?

Doesn't make sense.

I would think God is better than that.

Regards,
MG

Why would such a being use magic rocks or seer stones, burning bushes, magical sprouts, secret passwords, or sacred underwear? If you pull back a bit from your beliefs you might see how strange some of them might appear to non believers and how some of those items can looks like props.

[_Mad Viking]

MG, if your god is real, why would he choose to communicate to his children in the same manner utilized by psychics, astral projectionists, and sorcerers? Why would a god that truly exists use the same methods that charlatans use to deceive their marks?

And you are an expert on how God would communicate in some manner other than using the five senses? How do you know that God would communicate "in the same manner"? To do that he would have to use the exact same procedure or technique that psychics, astral projectionists, and sorcerers use.

I don't think that you can demonstrate that this is true.

God may communicate via means other than the five senses, but to lump that means and ways in with similar procedures or techniques that these other folks use is rather incongruous.

Why would the all knowing creator/god of all human beings on the earth be using the same techniques and procedures to communicate with human beings on the earth as these charlatans do?

Doesn't make sense.

I would think God is better than that.

Regards,
MG

Special pleading.